Is man basically good, or basically evil?
Is man basically good, or basically evil?
Please discuss the above topic. Again, I do not have time to post a profound and moving thought, so I will rely on others to make this an interesting discussion.
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Yes, man is basically evil. My reason for believing this? The Bible. It's pretty clear in James 6 (and various other places in the Bible) that we're born with sin nature's and we're slaves to sin until Christ frees us.
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I agree with Aaron. We are studying this in AWANA.
But, I do have a question that sorta spins off on this. When does God decide that a kid is old enough to not go to heaven? Do babies go to heaven, but not toddlers? What do you guys think?
But, I do have a question that sorta spins off on this. When does God decide that a kid is old enough to not go to heaven? Do babies go to heaven, but not toddlers? What do you guys think?
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There's no definitive age, I think. It's basically when they're old enough to grasp the difference between good and evil, and make a fully self aware decision about what they truly believe and where they want to put their faith.
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Now, to take the question deeper, what do people believe about the abilities of natively evil man? If man is basically and natively evil, can he do any good? Or, when the Bible says that men are slaves to sin and dead in their sins, does that mean that he can do no good at all before he is saved?
Formerly Christian A. :)
Man can do good even if he is not saved. But, that is a good point Christian. I think that God presses on unsaved people to do good? (basicly they do good through Him, in order to draw them closer to Him.) But then, sometimes Satan tricks them to think that now they are good enough to get into heaven?
I hope that makes sense?
I hope that makes sense?
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I'd agree to some extent.
I can't remember the reference to this verse, which drives me crazy. I believe it is in Romans, or in one of Paul's other works. Ephesians says:
I would say that nothing we do as fallen people is good, that it is tainted and without basis. Now, God can use these people to further His will, but their works are not good without a relationship with Him.
I agree with you that many people see themselves as basically good, with some flaws, and they think that their shadow of goodness is enough to present to God. That's a very sad thing, and it is a deception.
I can't remember the reference to this verse, which drives me crazy. I believe it is in Romans, or in one of Paul's other works. Ephesians says:
Anyway, it says that even the things that fallen people try to make good are not good before the Lord, or something along those lines.And you were dead in your trespasses and sins in which you previously walked according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler who exercises authority over the lower heavens, the spirit now working in the disobedient. We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thoughts, and we were by nature children under wrath as the others were also. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us, made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses
I would say that nothing we do as fallen people is good, that it is tainted and without basis. Now, God can use these people to further His will, but their works are not good without a relationship with Him.
I agree with you that many people see themselves as basically good, with some flaws, and they think that their shadow of goodness is enough to present to God. That's a very sad thing, and it is a deception.
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Yeah we're all inclined to do evil until we are born again..
"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Genesis 6:5
"And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done." Genesis 8:21
"Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." Job 14:4
"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Genesis 6:5
"And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done." Genesis 8:21
"Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." Job 14:4
Isaiah 40:8, 1 Corinthians 10:31
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The first verse has no bearing as it is before the flood. Also, it is speaking general not as a declaration with no exceptions, since God spared Noah.
In the translation you use it, says "imagination." Your own verse contradicts your point. If our imagination is evil, then that hints that is not our true self, as our imagination is a fantasy.
In your third verse, you assume that man is evil. It doesn't say man is evil, it says good cannot come from evil. And by the by, good does come from people who are not born again. So that verse actually refutes your case.
In the translation you use it, says "imagination." Your own verse contradicts your point. If our imagination is evil, then that hints that is not our true self, as our imagination is a fantasy.
In your third verse, you assume that man is evil. It doesn't say man is evil, it says good cannot come from evil. And by the by, good does come from people who are not born again. So that verse actually refutes your case.
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Lol, your comment has no bearing because Genesis 8:21 says the same thing after the flood, even though it's now only Noah and his family who are alive on the earth. Just because God spared Noah doesn't mean he was perfect. He was just the only person alive at that time who obeyed God and followed Him. He had been converted. Due to the universality of man's fallen nature, Noah would have necessarily been just like the rest before God changed his heart.Pound Foolish wrote:The first verse has no bearing as it is before the flood. Also, it is speaking general not as a declaration with no exceptions, since God spared Noah.
Formerly Christian A. :)
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Uh, you could do the courtesy of reading the whole post, so "Lol" to you, sir. Kaida already quoted that, and I refuted. Feel free to refute my argument, though. In fact, please do.
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Man is basically good. But then because of the fall we became inclined to do evil. We are still basically good just have inclinations to do evil.
Looking at all the insane evil going around lately, I'd say that man is pretty much evil.
And I'll just throw in Romans 3:10-23,
And I'll just throw in Romans 3:10-23,
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Genesis 1:31
God created us good. VERY good. It says so right there. We were made in God's image and in his likeness, God is good so therefor we were created like him good.God looked at everything he had made, and he found it very good. Evening came, and morning followed - the sixth day.
I didn't say human life isn't important, or humans aren't special or anything. We WERE good. Before we chose to sin. I guess I'll post this again:jehoshaphat wrote:Genesis 1:31God created us good. VERY good. It says so right there. We were made in God's image and in his likeness, God is good so therefor we were created like him good.God looked at everything he had made, and he found it very good. Evening came, and morning followed - the sixth day.
It says so right there. AFTER the garden of Eden. What do you think this means?10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
If we were just "Pretty much good" and just "Inclined" to sin, then why would God have sent his son to come DIE for us and take the penalty for all the wickedness in the world?
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I think the problem with saying we are basically evil is this, are when then saying that God's image in us can be so tarnished as to change our very nature as a race? What jehoshaphat and I would say is that we are each individually are inclined to sin because of our individual actions and because of the fallen world we live in but we as a race have not had our very nature twisted in such a way to make what God made good into bad.
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So you don't think the human race, as a whole, is bad? Look at the holocaust. Bad. Look at the atrocities that happened under the Roman empire. Bad. Think about all the rapes/murders/child abuse in the past couple centuries. Bad with a capital "B".Eleventh Doctor wrote:I think the problem with saying we are basically evil is this, are when then saying that God's image in us can be so tarnished as to change our very nature as a race? What jehoshaphat and I would say is that we are each individually are inclined to sin because of our individual actions and because of the fallen world we live in but we as a race have not had our very nature twisted in such a way to make what God made good into bad.
I think the whole "You're not really bad" thing that the world promotes is one of Satan's many methods of deception. I mean, if you're really not that bad, then why would you need a savior, right?
You mention our natures being twisted, do you not think we have a sin-nature? I do.
I believe that Adam and Eve WERE sinless and good when God created them, but when they chose to sin, sin entered. And when they had kids, their sin nature passed on to them. The sin-nature manifested itself in their son Cain who became a murderer (Genesis 4:8). The truth is, since the beginning, we've all inherited the sin-nature, with both the old and new testament speaking this fact. Here's some examples,
David said, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me” (Psalm 51:5). In another Psalm, David states: “The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth” (Psalm 58:3). His son Solomon wrote: "Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins” (Ecclesiastes 7:20). Jeremiah said, “The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?” (Jeremiah 17:9). The prophet Isaiah stated: "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away” (Isaiah 64:6).
In the New Testament Paul affirmed an inherited sin-nature and said, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12). And the Apostle John says this to his readers: "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8).
Phew, that's a lot of examples. XD Anyway, so that's what I believe.
One last thing. "The wages of sin is death". DEATH. If you sin, you deserve to DIE. That doesn't sound "basically good" to me.
But isn't it awesome that God sent his son to come and take care of it for us? Pretty killer.
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I think those are example of very evil people but that does not define our nature as a whole. We are still created by God and God does not create evil. I do not believe we have a sin nature. I believe when Scripture is talking about our iniquity and sin it is about our good nature corrupted not our evil nature. Yes the wages of sin is death, not our nature dooms us from birth but that our sins are what create the divide between us and God. I believe Christ came to reunite our nature with God, not changing our nature from evil to good but redeeming the good nature He created us with and was corrupted by the fallen creation.
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To all of you:
What do you mean by "man is basically evil" or "man is born with a sinful nature" or "man is inherently bad unless saved by Christ"?
Or all the other things?
Are you saying that a person needs to accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior in order to do good? I assume this is not what you are saying, as there are moral atheists who live good lives; they have obviously not "accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior".
So what are you saying? What is the debate here?
What do you mean by "man is basically evil" or "man is born with a sinful nature" or "man is inherently bad unless saved by Christ"?
Or all the other things?
Are you saying that a person needs to accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior in order to do good? I assume this is not what you are saying, as there are moral atheists who live good lives; they have obviously not "accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior".
So what are you saying? What is the debate here?
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The main point I would say that comes from man not having a sinful nature and instead being basically good is that man can, of his own free will, desire union with God. In contrast to what I think having a sinful nature and being basically evil means, that man cannot desire a union with God. This is the idea of Grace Alone, since man's nature is sinful and evil by his nature he does not desire union with God. I do not believe that, I believe instead that man does desire union with God and because of that man's nature must be good and not inherently sinful.
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