Communion: Open or Closed?

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Miss Friendship
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So it has special powers?
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jehoshaphat
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I wouldn't use powers to describe it rather I would say it imparts grace by its very nature.
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Miss Friendship
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I don't see that in scripture though. Don't we get grace through Jesus? Grace is spiritual, not physical.
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jehoshaphat
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I see in Scripture Jesus commanding us quite literally to eat his flesh and drink his blood to receive life within us. The Eucharist is Jesus. I never said it was a physical grace I said we receive grace through it. because we are literally consuming Christ. Reception of Christ into us brings grace into us. And we can receive grace from more than just Jesus.
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Miss Friendship
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From John 6:
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
You are pulling this thought from John, I gather. Well I don't really think Christ was talking about communion here. He says if you eat my flesh, and drink my blood, you have eternal life, and He will raise us up in the last day. There will be people who will be raised up in Heaven who have never had communion.

Also, He says it's not as your fathers did eat manna, so we know it's not something physical. He is talking about spiritually receiving Jesus into our lives, and drinking/eating of Him by a full life dedication and sold out commitment that lasts your entire life through.
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jehoshaphat
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John 6
43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
I think he is talking about communion here actually. Your logic there is flawed because he doesn't say only those who eat my flash and drink my blood will have eternal life and will be raised up he said whoever does this. Not only those who do this, so it still points to communion.

Regarding eating the manna, this translation is much clearer, and what it is actually saying is that his flesh and blood are different from the manna eaten by their ancestors in the desert. He goes on to say he who eateth of this bread shall live forever. Multiple times in this chapter he says I am the bread of life, unless you drink my blood and eat my flesh you have no life within you. The word for eat in these places literally means "to gnaw". Unless you gnaw on my flesh and drink my blood you have no life within you. Later it says many disciples left him after this teaching. Why would they leave him if he was speaking figuratively or just spiritually he must have been speaking literally for many of his disciples to leave him.
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Miss Friendship
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Umm, okay, it's much easier to physically eat something, then spiritually eat something. And it all depends on how you interpret it.

So, where does the Bible say you can receive grace outside of Jesus?
~Lady Friendship Knight of the Order of Chrysostom in the Court of the Debate Vampires~
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Eleventh Doctor
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No one is saying we're reciving grace outside of Jesus, this is very much Jesus; literally Jesus in fact.
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Miss Friendship
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It's only "literally" after you make it so. So, what power! Why don't you make every person the actual blood/body of Jesus? After all, we are all supposed to be Christ-like.
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Eleventh Doctor
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That's the plan
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Miss Friendship
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So we all are gods. Good to know.
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Eleventh Doctor
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That's what Scripture says we will be
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TigerShadow
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Where in Scripture are we told that we will become gods?
it's not about 'deserve'. it's about what you believe. and i believe in love
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Miss Friendship
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Eleventh Doctor wrote:That's what Scripture says we will be
I think that's referring to when we are in heaven. ?
~Lady Friendship Knight of the Order of Chrysostom in the Court of the Debate Vampires~
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Eleventh Doctor
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CS Lewis says it better than I can: http://www.antiochian.org/content/theos ... ine-nature
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jehoshaphat
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And I want to be clear, grace is according to the dictionary, "the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings."

Grace comes from God on anyone he chooses to bestow it on.

And yes it is easier to physically eat something, I don't quite get what you are trying to say. Also it really isn't up to private interpretation. Because as I have said before "no prophecy of scripture is a matter of personal interpretation."
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Miss Friendship
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But it comes from God and not by physical things. You can't buy grace. If you could, then you could buy some grace, and then go out and sin.

I am saying the disciples could have been turned off by spiritually turning themselves over to Jesus, which is far harder than doing a physical thing. Or suppose He was talking about both?

Jesus did tell the Samaritan women that he was the "water of life, and who ever drinks of him shall live forever." That sounds similar to what is being said here.
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jehoshaphat
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Yes grace comes from God but that doesn't mean he can't use physical things to impart his grace. Jesus was a man, God created the world. Physical things are not intrinsically bad.

No he wasn't speaking spiritually when he said you must gnaw on my flesh. He was speaking very very literally and even said that this saying was hard. Also when he said give away all you have and follow me, isn't that the same thing as what you are suggesting? And you know many people still followed him after that but not after he said they must eat his flesh. I wonder why that is? Also Jesus says my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. He didn't say my flesh is food in the only spiritual sense and my blood is drink only in the spiritual sense.

At the last supper Jesus gave us the way to receive his flesh through the Eucharist. He says this is my body, this is my blood, do this in memory of me. That is how we can receive what he told us to expect.

Did the Samaritan leave after he said that? No so it must have meant something else. If he wanted his words to mean something else people wouldn't have left over it.
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Miss Friendship
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I wasn't saying physical is bad. Just saying if you take it too far into that realm suddenly you can "buy" grace. That's the danger.

I'm open to the idea that He was talking about communion, but I am not sure why so many would be turned off if it was a simple easy thing. Or maybe they thought He was talking about cannibalism.

So why was communion mentioned before the last supper?

Excuse me? Jesus said a lot of hard things. To say that if the crowd didn't leave over it, it must not have been talking about communion, is extremely unsettling to me. :mad: And why couldn't a Samartain accept the thought of communion, if that was what Jesus was referring too? Saying that He is the water of life, and whoever drinks of Him shall never thirst, is quite dramatic of a saying as well.
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jehoshaphat
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First a clarifying question, you are both MF and Countess right? I just want to make sure before I jump to conclusions.

They were turned off because in a way he was talking about cannibalism but not actually cannibalism because Jesus is God. Because Jesus is God if we consume him it would bring us closer to him and make us more like him.

Because it is such an important topic Jesus didn't want us to fight over it because of "lack of things he said".

That's not what I meant. I agree that it is a hard saying but what I meant was that it wasn't the same as when he talked about communion. What I was trying to say that if Jesus had been talking literally about being the water of life and we have to drink him he it would've driven people away as well. I'm just trying to point out why Jesus was talking literally about being the bread of life and figuratively when talking about being a door.
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