Sola Scriptura

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Pound Foolish
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Sola Scriptura

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Ohhhh boy.

[PLEASE NOTE: There are many very young Christians, including ages 11 and under, on this board and you should consider carefully before reading the following. If you do read it, you should not feel your beliefs are wrong because you cannot refute the claims of an adult. If anything below challenges any of your beliefs, please talk to your parents. Thank you.]

1. The Argument from History

It was impossible for early Christians to get their hands on a printed Bible. Firstly, because the Bible was not printed until Gutenberg's innovations in 1450s, which gave us the first printed Vulgate. Thus, the Bible was not widely available. Secondly, what Bible? The Bible is a collection of documents that came into being gradually. The Bible was not gathered together into one book of one universally accepted canon for centuries. If the only authority is the Bible, then for some time, the Christianity had no authority over it. How could the Bible be their authority if there was none?

2. The Argument from Intent

The ancient authors nowhere mention in their works the hope that one day their numerous written documents would be assembled as the sole authority of the Church. Indeed, they could not have meant for such a thing. The Old Testament is documents written for Jews, the New is documents written for Christians. None of them are written to instruct those of no faith. Most of them were written, (excepting, the Gospels and the general epistles such as James 1 and 2 Peter) as provisional documents addressed to particular audiences for particular purposes. Not, clearly, for the instruction of the world at large. Nothing was further from their mind than for those documents, made to fulfill their role and nothing more, to be gathered from the corners of the world to enlighten it, only for some to claim it as the sole authority on Christianity.

3. The Argument from Theology

This is perhaps the biggest problem: it doesn't work. Protestants claim the Holy Spirit guides them in learning what the Bible is saying. There are literally thousands of denominations, and even within denominations, disagreement on basic Christian teachings such as the trinity, Purgatory, and more. The Holy Spirit then is very contradictory fellow.

4. The Argument from Logic

Most significantly, Sola Scriptora is self contradictory. There are no verses in the Bible saying scripture alone is sufficient and the main, or only, authority. No doubt you all have verses at the ready. Please, shoot.

Here we go!
“I absolutely demand of you and everyone I know that they be widely read in every [censored] field there is: in every religion and every art form and don’t tell me you haven’t got time! There’s plenty of time.”~ Ray Bradbury
Tarol
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You bring up good points, and I honestly don't have any answers. However, I did appreciated the warning/note, that was very thoughtful of you, because this could be a very life-changing topic.

But, anyway, are you saying that the Bible doesn't matter? You said the Biblical writing was only for "particular audiences." Does that mean it's obsolete? And then, what do we rely on? One Person? One Pope?

And, bringing up the Trinity and Purgatory are rather bad examples. Yes, the Trinity is confused in some denominations, but I hope and pray that most denominations still uphold that. And Purgatory, I believe, is only accepted by Catholics... no one else. Neither Orthodox or Protestants. (I'm sure there are exceptions, but in most cases) However, I do agree that there are a lot of disagreeing denominations, but I think that most of the disagreements are not really as big or important as they are made out to be (by the churches themselves, that is).
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jehoshaphat
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I agree with Foolish on this issue and I hope he doesn't mind me answering some of your points.

First, I think what PF is saying is that the Bible is important but that it not the only source of truth and teaching. The Church has been given the authority to teach and spread the Gospel. And even though scripture was often aimed at particular audiences it is still apllicable to us now.
"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness," 2 Timothy 3:16


I will respond to the rest later.
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Blitz
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I find this argument interesting, though I had a month of a course on the Bible.

Gutenberg's Bible was slightly different from the Vulgate. You actually could get your hands on the Bible because of some dissenters earlier on that copied the Bible. Their names escape me now though.

I disagree with that again. The apostles and the writers consistently mention the Word of God as the only authority. To our knowledge what is written is the only viable given Word of God. The rest come from men who where never spoken to directly.

Isn't that the fault of the people who have preconceptions and blurry view of reality. Even Paul says we see through the glass darkly now, and he had the chance to see heaven.

To number four, I have stated above.
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jehoshaphat
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Give me verses regarding Scripture as the only Authority.
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Pound Foolish
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Isaiah the Ox wrote:But, anyway, are you saying that the Bible doesn't matter? You said the Biblical writing was only for "particular audiences." Does that mean it's obsolete?
Gosh.

No.

The Bible is essential, holy, God's word. Also, yes, authoritative. Just not the sole authority. It could be argued it is lowering the scripture rather than elevating it to misuse it for what it is not, and elevating scripture to recognize it for what it is.
Isaiah the Ox wrote:And, bringing up the Trinity and Purgatory are rather bad examples.
Good point.
Blitz wrote:You actually could get your hands on the Bible because of some dissenters earlier on that copied the Bible.
Absolutely. Again, the Bible was not printed until Gutenberg invented the printing press. Before, (and for awhile after) it was, as you say, copied laboriously by hand. The availability was limited to those who could see such work and were in such parts of the world as copied the Bible.
Blitz wrote:I disagree with that again. The apostles and the writers consistently mention the Word of God as the only authority.
Ditto Jehosaphat. (Thanks for the help by the way. ;) ) Let's try to focus on that. That's what's at the heart of this.
Blitz wrote:Isn't that the fault of the people who have preconceptions and blurry view of reality. Even Paul says we see through the glass darkly now, and he had the chance to see heaven.
Precisely. In other words, again, Sola Scriptura doesn't work. If the reader can decide essentially anything, so long as they truly believe it and base it on scripture, so as it is truly their conclusion drawn from the Bible, it's a valid opinion, it's Sola Scriptora.
“I absolutely demand of you and everyone I know that they be widely read in every [censored] field there is: in every religion and every art form and don’t tell me you haven’t got time! There’s plenty of time.”~ Ray Bradbury
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jehoshaphat
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Also the Bible explicitly says that the Bible is not for private interpretation. 2 Peter 1:20 "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation"
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Tarol
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Pound Foolish wrote: Gosh.

No.

The Bible is essential, holy, God's word. Also, yes, authoritative. Just not the sole authority. It could be argued it is lowering the scripture rather than elevating it to misuse it for what it is not, and elevating scripture to recognize it for what it is.
Okay, just making sure. You came across like you were saying that, so I thought I'd make sure.
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I'm a hair disappointed this didn't attract more debate vampires. Tiger? Belle? Bethany? Miss Friendship?
“I absolutely demand of you and everyone I know that they be widely read in every [censored] field there is: in every religion and every art form and don’t tell me you haven’t got time! There’s plenty of time.”~ Ray Bradbury
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TigerShadow
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If you're wondering about my lack of presence—it's because I'm not really that interested in theological, church-history-and-tradition-based debates. They're simply not my forte. I don't have the intimate personal knowledge that comes with adequate education, which I consider to be my personal requirement to be a competent voice on the subject. I also don't like constantly calling upon my brother for information; if you wanted to hear his opinion, you'd ask him yourself.

I don't think that whether or not you adhere to the five solas is really that spiritually relevant in the long term—is it really that big of a deal if someone believes in Catholic tradition as equally authoritative to the Bible or not, so long as they're not holier-than-thou about it?—so I'm not really interested in arguing the subject.
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Doll
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TigerShadow wrote:If you're wondering about my lack of presence—it's because I'm not really that interested in theological, church-history-and-tradition-based debates. They're simply not my forte.
Same here. I also forgot I was even a debate vampire too. O_O
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Eleventh Doctor
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My subjects have failed to rise to the occasion. Of course I don't believe in the Solas so that could have caused some internal power struggles so perhaps all for the best.

p.s. Miss Friendship doesn't believe in the Solas anymore
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Gotcha. I've always thought it's something worth arguing about, it's the biggest difference between our churches. If you were to accept that Sola Scriptura is invalid, then it would mean something else has to be the authority on Christianity, and you'd have to radically change your life. If it's true Sola Scriptura is false, it's a truth worth pursuing. If not, then I am accepting as doctrine things that may be entirely fallacious when I should be going to the Bible and deciding myself, and I need to radically change my life.

Though speaking of, Good Doctor, what the hey is MF then? I wasn't aware you could be un-sola and still be Protestant. That's what Protestant is, you base your authority on the Bible, right?
“I absolutely demand of you and everyone I know that they be widely read in every [censored] field there is: in every religion and every art form and don’t tell me you haven’t got time! There’s plenty of time.”~ Ray Bradbury
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TigerShadow
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Put it this way: she's AWOL.

Honestly, I've always learned that Protestantism is just "anything that sprang up as a reaction to Catholicism or a subreaction of same". If it formed during the Reformation or as an off-shoot from a Reformation group, it's Protestant. As far as I am aware, the five solas are a key difference, but they're not the only key difference.
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Eleventh Doctor
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@PF She's looking into some other options

@Tiger So what are some of the other key differences?
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TigerShadow
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This may apply only to certain Protestant denominations and I simply don't know what in the world I'm talking about (something I should have considered before speaking because again, knowledge of church history and I are worlds apart on a good day), but I believe that our differences also include the concept of sainthood carrying much less baggage, the fact that most of us don't believe in transubstantiation, and that we take confession directly to God rather than going through a priest. (Or perhaps these are all intimately entwined with the five solas such that these are subcategories of the solas rather than unique concepts on their own.)
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Eleventh Doctor
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Yeah those things are related to why the Reformation created the Solas. Soli Deo Gloria is about Saints and giving God the glory, note both Orthodox and Catholics only give God the glory.

Luther and the other Reformers, besides Zwingli, would have believe in transubstantiation so that one isn't tied to the Solas or to Protestantism entirely.

As for confession that is Solus Christus or through Christ alone, saying that sacraments do not need to be received through priests. I would of course argue if we look at the Old Testament we do see a clergy model.
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TigerShadow
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Okay, fair enough. -shrugs-

Tiger out.
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Tarol
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I see the view of perspicuity of Scripture as much worse than Sola Scripture. >_> And I mean... the extreme version. That is, that the only way you can believe anything as actual truth is if, after reading the whole Bible, 1,000 random strangers, with little education, can arrive at the said truth. This may just be a Evangelical thing, but I've heard it brought up many times in debates and I roll my eyes every time. It makes me wonder how the same person can then go on to express how Christianity stands on an "absolute truth." If we are sick, we don't go ask 1,000 uneducated people what we should do, and do what the most amount of people say we should do. That is not to say we should not read our Bibles, but I think doctrines and theology should evolve from a little better source than just 1,000 readers.
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If Scripture is not the sole authority on Christianity, then what is? How do we determine what God has actually said and what is just our thoughts and opinions?


Etc., etc.: I, Ninjahunter
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