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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:12 pm 
Lemon Meringue
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I'm sorry Sage, I shouldn't jump to conclusions, but there is still one question that I want answered by PF (or any other Catholic on the board). How do you believe you get into heaven?


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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:16 pm 
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Believing that Jesus Christ is your lord and savior and by his grace you are saved.. That you have to do something about your faith.

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:32 pm 
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Hey guys,

I've skimmed over part of this conversation, and while I don't think I have much to add, I do think that are a few things we need to remember. In recent decades, Protestants have -- I think, wrongly -- ganged up on Catholics and generalized their beliefs/traditions. I've done it in the past, and I'm not sure why so many protestants have gathered such a cynical and, dare I say it, condescending view of our brothers-in-Christ. (yes, brothers!) I think both denominations (yes, denominations!) can learn a lot from each other.

Really, Catholics, just like Protestants, have different sort of belief systems across the board, even though Catholics are all technically following the authority Pope and the church. Some are more socially liberal than others, while others choose to emphasize church tradition rather than scripture (yep, just like many protestants). Pope Benedict, in particular, was very much conservative, pro-lifer, passionate about theology and placing emphasis on scripture - more-so, I think, than Pope John Paul. For Protestants, there's a lot to agree with and be inspired by.

For some reason, when I was young, I used to believe that anyone who said they were Catholic didn't really practice their faith seriously. I've bumped into many who've told me, "Yeah, I'm Catholic", and, in response, I automatically brushed it aside and assumed they weren't believers at all. I think there are a lot of Protestants out there that do something like that. It's a bad habit.

Recently, I've run into many very devout Christian Catholics who worship Christ, seek to follow him, and believe the essential Truths. So, in response to the earlier claims, Catholicism and Christianity are not mutually exclusive. Why are we so quick to judge them, or criticize? When protestants disagree with one another, we simply "protest" and break off into smaller and smaller denominations, over small nit-picky things. In contrast, there's something admirable about a church that, after so many centuries, has managed to try and keep it together and have a strong influence in, yes, spreading God's word.

I think there are a lot of generalizations made about Catholic practices because we either just don't understand them, or they seem foreign to us. One thing that people don't like about Catholics is the fact that they "pray to different saints", while Protestants believe individuals have a direct line to God. In response to this claim, a Catholic friend of mine asked me this question:

"Do you ask your mother, father, friend, or grandmother to pray for you?"

"Yes", I replied.

"Then what's the difference between that and asking people who have died and are in heaven to also pray for you? Do we just ask for the prayers of those who are living?"

So, for this particular Catholic, they prayed to the saints in order to ask them to pray for them in times of need, or when they lacked the strength to know how to pray, and not - as we sometimes accuse them - in order to worship them. So, when you sort of start to wrestle with some of the logistical reasons behind some of the practices, it almost starts to makes sense. And not necessarily absolutely unbliblical, but just...foreign. (although I'm sure I'll get a few people pointing to certain verses)

So, the whole point of all of this is: if you haven't, talk to a Catholic - don't argue - but listen. Sometimes we're too busy arguing our own beliefs that we don't ever pay attention to where they're coming from and why they follow certain traditions. You'll be surprised to discover some sort of logic behind a few of them.

Ben


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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:46 pm 
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Ben very nicely put.

I was just wondering about a few things that Catholics I know, are under able to answer. I will also say I am not a Protestant. I am not trying to offend anyone, I was just trying to see what you truly believe. But I have yet to have anyone answer my questions... So...

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:48 pm 
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Thank you Ben!

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:00 pm 
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Well put Ben.

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:51 pm 
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Thank you indeed, Ben. As always, you speaketh a mouthful.
I would like to concur, on Protestants, not Catholics. Just to be clear, I don't view Protestants as unintelligent, and certainly not as unchristian. If I'm ever as intelligent or Christian as TS, I'll be quite proud of myself. That said, I'll continue to be sarcastic, blunt and insulting. That's just my style.
to Ninjathrowingstar:
I'm sorry, I never meant to ignore your questions, they're good ones. Well, I did mean to ignore them for the moment, :P but I planned to come back to them. There was just too much I needed to reply to all at once, I didn't expect such a lot of response.
Anyhow, whiny excuses done, to answer your question about Mary, we do indeed have a very large framed copy of the miraculous image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, (spelling right on first try) as well as a smaller framed painting. On the other hand, we also have a huge painting of Jesus. And I don't believe we've ever burned candles for her, though that's very commonly done... In fact, in our church, we have four statues with a bunch of large candles in colored glass in front of them, and you can pay a donation to light them and ask the saints to pray for you. I'm sure that sounds like bizarro city to you, but since the Catholic church is the one who declares people saints (Mary included) they're just part of our daily lives.
As to confession, that's a very big question with a lot of theology around it, so I'll just give the short answer: confession gives you more chance of avoiding hell. Yes, God forgives your sins if you ask, but that doesn't mean your sins are erased from your soul. Jesus could forgive sins, and passed that power onto the apostles. Priests, being in a sense, the successors of the apostles, have this power as well. And hey, it's free!
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Hebrews 4:15; For we do not have a High Priest [Jesus] who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

He didn't need to say excluding the angels, because angles are heavenly beings, and Paul's audience was people, humans.

True. But none of that attacks my point: there are exceptions to Paul's rule. Granted, not human ones, but nonetheless, intelligent beings with the gift of reason. Now, babies on the other hand, definitely are human. (Unless you want to argue that too.)
Quote:
As far as for the babies:

Psalm 58:3; Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.

Okay, I just rolled my eyes when I read that. Seriously? Really. Okay.
You're asserting with a straight face that babies can sin? You think that's what the speaker meant? You're going to make me refute that? That is absolutely... wait a sec. What am I saying?
You're RIGHT, Blondie! Babies DO spread lies! They are dangerous and dastardly! They cry for the evil glee of ti, soil their diapers out of avarice, and spit up upon their mothers for sheer spite!
Bewarrrre of "wicked" babies!
Image

Be-WARRRE!
Image

BEWARRRE!
[img]
http://www.pxleyes.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/baby/2.jpg
[/img]
Ha ha. Sorry, done. Now then... Oh, what the heck. One more.
Image

This is fun. Okay....
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Nope, never saw this. If you mean the thing about the angel saying that she was full of grace, I feel that you are reading too much into that phrase.

How so? Nothing was read into the words. Read it again. The definition of the original text was given, and their direct grammatical implication and facts pointed out. Nothing more, nothing less. Unless of course you know something about those Greek words that I don't, my dear ancient languages expert.

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:56 pm 
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Alright then, PF, what does the Psalm mean then? Are you calling God a liar? Tell us, if you're the huge expert...which ya don't sound like whatsoever...

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:20 pm 
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Pound Foolish wrote:

God's Girl wrote:
Hebrews 4:15; For we do not have a High Priest [Jesus] who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

He didn't need to say excluding the angels, because angles are heavenly beings, and Paul's audience was people, humans.

True. But none of that attacks my point: there are exceptions to Paul's rule. Granted, not human ones, but nonetheless, intelligent beings with the gift of reason. Now, babies on the other hand, definitely are human. (Unless you want to argue that too.)


Okay, while we are on the subject, can animals sin? Seeing as how Paul was writing humans, not cats and dogs or angles, the exceptions don't matter.

Pound Foolish wrote:
God's Girl wrote:
Psalm 58:3; Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.

Okay, I just rolled my eyes when I read that. Seriously? Really. Okay.
You're asserting with a straight face that babies can sin? You think that's what the speaker meant? You're going to make me refute that? That is absolutely... wait a sec. What am I saying?
You're RIGHT, Blondie! Babies DO spread lies! They are dangerous and dastardly! They cry for the evil glee of ti, soil their diapers out of avarice, and spit up upon their mothers for sheer spite!
Bewarrrre of "wicked" babies!


So, you think that this isn't true? Yes, I think that the heart is wicked and evil, even from birth.

Pound Foolish wrote:
Unless of course you know something about those Greek words that I don't, my dear ancient languages expert.


You are right, I am not knowledgeable enough to refute this. However, I still do not believe that Mary was without sin.

And, I just feel that I should say this again, as my comment in reply to Mary McFly's comment sparked this debate. Even though some things that SOME Catholics believe is wrong, the same is true for Protestants as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:40 pm 
Lemon Meringue
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Hey, PF, we're the one rolling our eyes at you! Just because babies are cute or whatever doesn't mean they don't sin!


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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:54 pm 
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Pound Foolish wrote:
If I'm ever as intelligent or Christian as TS, I'll be quite proud of myself.

:oops: I didn't know I was given that high of regard around here, let alone by you, whom I haven't debated much at all. Thanks, I guess. Now I just hope it doesn't get to my head...

Now... about what Ben said. I actually agree for the most part. I know I'm one of the ones who's usually around here bashing Catholics and Catholicism. Really, when I'm doing that, I'm bashing their theology, not the people themselves. Thankfully, many (if not most) Catholics, don't know the stuff their church actually teaches. I truly believe that many of them are Evangelicals at heart, who just go to mass, and that's the only thing that makes them Catholic.

Matt Maher, a popular Christian worship leader, is a Catholic, and he's written some great songs about how the grace of God and union with Christ are the only things that save us. He co-wrote "Your Grace Is Enough" with Chris Tomlin. I bet most Protestant churches who use that song for morning worship have no idea that it was written in part by a Catholic.

And then you've got Paul McCusker, J.R.R. Tolkien, Audrey Assad, and many others who are Catholic by name but who seem to have fairly valid theology. So, in the sense that there are many Catholics who don't know what their church teaches and don't buy into some of its heretical theology, I would be willing to call them Christians.

But, the Roman Catholic church itself is not a Christian organization. I firmly believe that, and no one can convince me otherwise. I don't so much mind teachings like praying to dead saints or even praying to Mary, but when it comes to salvation, that's where the big issue is. Yes, Catholics will say, we're saved by grace and faith and Jesus and God. But the problem is that they don't add the alone. By grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone.

Protestants believe that that formula alone will save/justify. But, Catholics do have a valid point that one will not be saved without works. We are not saved by works, but we do not go to heaven without them. If someone claims to be a Christian, but their lives don't show it, they're not showing the fruit of the Holy Spirit's work in their lives, and they are probably not saved. Now, it's not because they are not doing good things that they're not saved. But a saved person will do good. So, works aren't part of the salvation formula, but we don't go to heaven without them, because they are a necessary result of a changed heart.

The problem is, Catholics mix that up. They add works to the equation of salvation, such that one cannot be saved without doing good works, according to their system. For them, works are part of justification. For Protestants, works are part of sanctification, but not our initial salvation. To trust in anything other than the works of Christ for our acceptance with God is heresy. That's why we go so hard for grace and faith alone. If works are added, salvation automatically loses its place as an act that is solely performed by God; we play a part. But that's not biblical, and it's actually very unbiblical.

Protestants (and I, in particular) preach against Catholics as often as we do because we don't want anyone to get the wrong idea of where salvation comes from. We have nothing to do with it! We are merely the dead souls that God raises to life. We don't deserve it; we don't do anything to earn it. With Catholicism, it's our works together with Jesus' that get us saved. That's wrong. And that's dangerous.

But, like I said, if you're a Catholic and you truly do not believe what your church holds to, then great! I'm happy that I don't have to group you together with them then.

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:34 pm 
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I am just pointing this out, if you say you are a Catholic but then do not belive all that it teaches then your not a Catholic.

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:17 pm 
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@PF or any other Catholic who can answer these questions.

""As to confession, that's a very big question with a lot of theology around it, so I'll just give the short answer: confession gives you more chance of avoiding hell. Yes, God forgives your sins if you ask, but that doesn't mean your sins are erased from your soul. Jesus could forgive sins, and passed that power onto the apostles. Priests, being in a sense, the successors of the apostles, have this power as well. And hey, it's free!""-PF

Okay so why did Jesus die if his blood could not wash away our sin??? I mean logically it doesn't make any sense for a sinless man to die for a bunch of sinners if he isn't able to help then out of Hell. That would be like you going to help someone out of the mud, but you can't walk.

I have an other question. If babies are sinless why do you Baptize them??? Why do they go to purgetory and not straight to heaven??? Why do I need to "pray" for my cousin who died when she was 6 weeks old???

(Sorry it took me so long to reply... how about this for a lame excuse I forgot about you're post... :? Oopsy.)

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:40 pm 
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(note to Gods Girl: most of this is addressed to you, just skip to where it says your name)
at Christian
Eep. I was afraid you'd find me.
Quote:
But, the Roman Catholic church itself is not a Christian organization

Interesting. What is it then? A chimichanga in a tutu?
I rather cringed when I saw you'd commented here. Now, look, Mr, I've seen the monster posts you made with Aaron (quite well written and fascinating) and I have no intention of being drawn into a mile-long debate with you, especially since you've already said yourself you have no intention of changing your ideas. This post shall already be quite long, I think, and I’m already spending lots of time debating here.
Also, God's Girl's post is more urgent to me right now, so instead of debating with you, I'll just call you real quick on a few particularly irking missteps in your statement.
First, this is just something that bugged me since I'm a big author and fantasy buff, but you said people such as Tolkien must have known little about their faith since they had some sound theology. *buzzer* WRONG. In fact, Tolkien helped CS Lewis on the road to becoming Christian, though Lewis was always strongly protestant. Tolkien was serious and very informed about his faith, and makes that clear in some of his works. CS Lewis has mentioned having long debates with Tolkien over Catholicism and Christianity, and, I believe, even mentions that in his autobiography.
More importantly, I do embrace everything the Catholic church teaches. Incidentally, we don't believe we are saved by works. Only Christ can. In fact, you could be murdering pimp and, if you accepted God's love at the moment you died, you would still go to heaven. *disclaimer: I don't recommend trying this, single-instant conversions can be hard to manage* Indeed, many Catholics don't know a lot of what the church teaches... but that's because rather than going to the Bible and getting our own ideas, (important as the Bible is) we have everything we need to believe written down in hundreds upon hundreds of books. It's a long learning experience. I'm still working on it, and will be all my life. There's much to know. But almost all Catholics know the basics. It also depends what you mean by teachings. We have a lot of ideas and dogmas that come and go, but doctrines must be accepted. Do you even have any idea what most of the doctrines are? By the by, it's one thing if someone is having trouble believing something, but if they deliberately reject a doctrine, then they're not Catholic.
Point: I do embrace everything the "heretical" Catholic church teaches, especially doctrines, and I'm proud of it. Everything I've said has been Catholic teaching. (Gasp! Horrors.)
But anyhow, I probably shan't debate with you further. If you reply to this post, I will likely just twiddle my thumbs and pretend I need to check my email. Like I said, I don't want to get involved in an epic battle and write a novel.
Also, well... you've made it pretty obvious you've never opened a Catholic theology book in your life, probably don't even talk to Catholics about their faith, and have no idea what the heck you're talking about. There was almost nothing factual about your post. So, like a lot of protestants, before you can debate on Catholic ideas and expect me to take you seriously, you have a lot of homework.
----------------------------------------

Ninja
Quote:
Okay so why did Jesus die if his blood could not wash away our sin??? I mean logically it doesn't make any sense for a sinless man to die for a bunch of sinners if he isn't able to help then out of Hell. That would be like you going to help someone out of the mud, but you can't walk.

Nice metaphor. But though God washed away our sin, we still have free will. We can accept his gift of purity, or reject it. And confession is one of the ways in which God makes Heaven available to us. But if it wasn't for the crucifixion, we'd be trapped. Our sin would stay with us, no matter what. That being said, one's sins can be taken away by God after we die. Confession is basically like insurance.
As to baptizing babies, again, babies are born with sin, but they can't sin, the verb.
-------------------------------------

God's Girl
Quote:
You are right, I am not knowledgeable enough to refute this. However, I still do not believe that Mary was without sin.

So, you do realize there's clear evidence Mary was without sin... but rather than research, you're going to automatically reject it? So that you can hang on to a belief that may be erroneous? Pardon, but isn't that called being self delusional?
Quote:
Okay, while we are on the subject, can animals sin? Seeing as how Paul was writing humans, not cats and dogs or angles, the exceptions don't matter.

Animals have the gift of reason? I may feel guilty when next we're at Wendy's. But I see your point. That was just an attempt to demonstrate there are intelligent beings like humans who haven't sinned. That's a rather weak point, yes. But it was a brief, small one, just a springboard for pointing out that not all humans have sinned either. You may continue to argue this if you wish. But I have no further interest in discussing a side issue.
Quote:
So, you think that this isn't true? Yes, I think that the heart is wicked and evil, even from birth.

Wow... And since Metal15 agreed with you, apparently this is not uncommon... unbelievable.
That's hilarious.
And very sad.
There’s quite a bit to say here, this will go on a lonnng while, so please read it all if you will, and bear with me.
Your interpretation of that verse is way off. That verse is surrounded by metaphors and similes (eg, “LORD, tear out the fangs of those lions!” The wicked of whom the writer speaks aren’t literally lions, one would imagine.) So why on earth you would take it literally is a mystery. The obvious conclusion is that one may simply misinterpret such things so at to support their personal way of thinking. I’m sure you have many other verses you’d love throw at me, but I’ll tell you in advance they’d all have something wrong with them. There’s no end of stuff in the Bible about wickedness… and lots of things for that matter. Don’t forget, the Bible was used for years in America across the nation to support slavery.
Babies are a sign of innocence, pure, a source of light. Their unblemished state is a sign of hope to the world. That you would accuse them of corruption… is terrible.
In the first place, this is just instinctively silly. When a baby smacks an older sibling, and then the sibling smacks the baby back, does the mother punish the baby or the sibling? We know without thinking that a baby just doesn’t have the reasoning ability to realize things are wrong. This is one of those purple sky things again (Arkan said a long time ago in a topic that arguing with protestants is like one person arguing the sky is blue, and another saying it’s purple. You know the sky is blue, but how to prove it? You know without thinking the sky is blue, how do you prove it logically?) No one would think without such ideas as human nature being evil shoved into their head that babies are capable of sin. If you think me wrong, try saying babies can be “wicked” to some people who don’t know about your ideas. They’ll give you an odd look and laugh.
But if I must try to answer this logically, (though frankly this absolutely ridiculous) then… Well a baby doesn’t have experience with the world, nor is its brain developed much. It doesn’t know what’s safe and unsafe. How in Heaven’s name then could it sin!? If it doesn’t have an elementary hat’s harmful to it or anyone or anything else, it can do things that are wrong, but it can’t sin! It’s not sinful for a tree to fall on a car. But this is all obvious enough… so you must have considered this before. I’m just curious how you can possibly get past such basic common sense.
A person who hasn’t been brought up with beliefs like yours just instinctively knows babies are innocent. If some wild flowers bloomed on in a field, you’d think they were lovely. But in a fallen world, the same wild flowers could grow all over your yard, and then you wouldn’t be so happy. But the flowers would still be beautiful. They would just be in an imperfect world, where they, by their nature, can DO imperfect things.
But that doesn’t make the flowers themselves bad.
They’re just bad for your yard.
The imprint of Adam’s sin is on all of us, but that doesn’t make US, our nature, sin. We are still humans. And humans are a good thing, as all things created by God are.
Our nature isn’t evil.
Our nature is… well…
A mother cannot be a mother without a baby. Just as the baby cannot exist without the mother, a mother cannot be if there is no baby. In a typical paradox of love, the baby and the mother create each other.
And there cannot be a mother without a man. And would you say a woman is a wife if she’s never had husband?
And when another child comes, they make each thus into siblings. A sibling cannot exist without a the other.
And this goes on. It’s true of everything and everyone. An aunt can’t be an aunt without a nephew or niece. A doctor can’t be a doctor without a patient. A fireman or woman can’t be a fireman or woman without people who need them to stop fires. A teacher can’t…
And what motivates all that? What, ideally, makes us who we are? What makes our true, God given vocations?
Love.
It’s love that brings a man and woman together.
It’s love that creates a child.
It’s love that makes a family.
It’s love that makes a vocation.
Love is our nature.
God made us. God is love. God is who we are. Love comes from God. God loves. We give love to others. We create each other and give each other identity. It’s a cycle.
That’s who we are.
Not sinners.
We are sinners, to be sure. But that’s not our core. That’s not our nature. We are not fallen from birth, capable of wrong no matter what. The world is not so black. We may sometimes grow over people’s yards, but we are still beautiful flowers.
Alright, you say. But a baby can come from rape, that’s hardly love. Yes, but a mother has to “come to terms” with being a mother in such an instance. It takes more than a pregnancy to create the identity of a true mother. The name “mother” describes the fact of pregnancy, but it is not an identity, in the same way the name “wife” is not the identity of a woman forced into marriage. Why else would so many pro-lifers say abortion is alright in the case of rape? What’s needed is an outpouring of love between mother and child so they can create each other.
(Having said that, a baby tends towards a creative act of love. This can be beautiful, as when a mother desires reunion with the child she gave up for adoption, or painful, as when the baby is killed by abortion and the mother, later in life, begins to count the would-be-birthdays. This is love. It may manifest itself as regret, as repentance, as reconciliation, or as bitterness, but it is ultimately a claiming of the child, a gift of identity that makes his existence matter.)
So the complex reality of those conceived outside of love actually proves my point. Love creates our identity and makes it dependent on another.
The question “Who are you?” is only ever answered — if it is to be answered in a way that means anything — with an identity given in love. We are sons, daughters, siblings, spouses, friends, students, lovers — relation, relation, relation.
Now, this may all seem rather absurd to you. Maybe you are already thinking of more verses to throw and thinking you see holes in the logic. But take a deep breath. This is important.
It’s about you.
And God.
And love.
Either your identity is love, tending towards beauty and goodness, or you’re natural state is wickedness.
There’s a big difference between the two. This is it. You can pus all this out of your mind easily. You can choose to go on believing what you believe. And, who knows, maybe there’s a lot of truth in what you already believe.
But you’ve got to think logically.
Think.
You’ve been handed the idea that “the human heart is wicked”, and you’ve accepted it. It’s not easy to reconsider realities you consider basic. But please try. Blondie, this about… Who. You. Are.
You’re a star convinced you’re the darkness.
Try. Think. Even if it takes a few days, give all this a chance. Try. In the name of God, try.

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:28 pm 
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I believe that parts of Catholicism are wrong, such as worshipping the saints. I would consider this as going against the second commandment. However, we are all sinners, and I'm sure we all do things that are wrong without even thinking about how they are wrong. I think the main point is that we believe that Jesus died for our sins, and that God is lord. Aside from the fundamentals, the rest is just specifics, and we shouldn't be like the Pharisees, proclaiming eternal punishment for those who don't exactly follow our rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:33 pm 
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This is getting really in depth

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:59 am 
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First, I must tell you something, your post was very thought provoking, and you remind me very much of my Sunday School teacher. That is a compliment of the highest standards, because I think my Sunday School teacher is the best teacher I've ever had.

Pound Foolish wrote:
So, you do realize there's clear evidence Mary was without sin... but rather than research, you're going to automatically reject it? So that you can hang on to a belief that may be erroneous? Pardon, but isn't that called being self delusional?

I should have said that I am working on researching more into this matter and discussing it with my AWANA teacher, who just happens to have been raised Catholic. I'll get back to you when I have more on the subject.

Pound Foolish wrote:
As to baptizing babies, again, babies are born with sin, but they can't sin, the verb.

Pound Foolish wrote:
We are sinners, to be sure. But that’s not our core. That’s not our nature. We are not fallen from birth, capable of wrong no matter what. The world is not so black. We may sometimes grow over people’s yards, but we are still beautiful flowers.

These 2 excerpts from your "novel" seem to contradict each other.

And perhaps I should have been clearer about what I was trying to say.

Man is basically evil. I completely agree with Connie's statements in "Hold Up". Even though we are saved, we are still evil inside. Following Jesus helps minimize the evil, of course, because the more you walk with him, the more your actions and wants become what he wants you to do and want.

Honestly, the thoughts about babies has made me think. A lot. One of the tough questions I'm always asking myself is, "When is the age when God starts sending kids to Hell instead of Heaven for their actions?" It troubles me to end, you should know, and I haven't been able to come to a conclusive answer. I know, based upon what I have been saying, that as soon as babies are born, they don't go to Heaven, which makes no sense. When is the definitive age when babies know right from wrong?

What about babies who are not baptized at birth? Where do they go?
If all babies go to Heaven, regardless of whether they were baptized or not, then why bother with baptizing them?

And while we are on the subject of Purgatory, do you believe in doing it? Why?
Please find no offense in this,
but my first thought on the subject of purgatory is that it sounds an awful lot like what the Mormons do....

Pound Foolish wrote:
Either your identity is love, tending towards beauty and goodness, or you’re natural state is wickedness.

You have made me think about this more. Perhaps I was being to hasty with my comments, but I'm still not completely certain of what I belive. I will have to talk with someone at my church about this and pray about it. But thank you, you have given me much to think about.

Pound Foolish wrote:
You’re a star convinced you’re the darkness.

This sounds like a line from a poem or a song. ;)

On a side note, as I was copying and pasting your quotes, this phrase popped out and made me think of this:

Pound Foolish wrote:
A chimichanga in a tutu?

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:21 am 
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PF: I know you won't respond to this, but I'm writing anyway. I didn't mean to imply that you yourself were not a solid doctrine-believing Catholic. I just said that if there was anyone like that, I'd be glad to call them my brother or sister in Christ. I didn't know what you said about Tolkien, so I'll have to look into that more.

You are correct, I have never picked up a Catholic theology textbook. But I have heard from many people who have, and I myself have read portions of Councils like the Council of Trent, which seems to me to be the most important one. I have talked with Catholics about their faith, as we have a lot of them in Ohio. And I usually find the opposite of what you said: most of them don't know anything at all about their faith; they just go to mass for tradition's sake and live their lives any way they want to. I came to this topic with homework, and I don't really think there's that much left to do. Maybe I can look up the Catholic doctrine of salvation, but from what I've heard, it's very different from Protestant soteriology.

Protestant: Repent of Your Sins+Trust in Jesus' Life and Death for You=Salvation
Catholic: Begin to Repent of Sins+Have Jesus' Righteousness Infused Within You+Spend the Rest of Your Life Building on That Righteousness Until You Reach the Whole Righteousness Which Can Get You Into Heaven

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Jeremiah 13:23
Ezekiel 36:26-27
Ephesians 2:4-10

God has done the impossible! He has, in effect, changed a leopard's spots into stripes! He turned me, one who was accustomed to do evil, into one who can walk in good works! He brought me to life from the dead and gave me His Spirit, in order to cause me to walk in His statutes! He has totally changed me, and it is all for His glory!


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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:15 pm 
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GratiaDei wrote:
I believe that parts of Catholicism are wrong, such as worshipping the saints. I would consider this as going against the second commandment. However, we are all sinners, and I'm sure we all do things that are wrong without even thinking about how they are wrong. I think the main point is that we believe that Jesus died for our sins, and that God is lord. Aside from the fundamentals, the rest is just specifics, and we shouldn't be like the Pharisees, proclaiming eternal punishment for those who don't exactly follow our rules.

We do not worship the saints. We ask them to intercede for us. Big difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:07 pm 
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Pound Foolish wrote:
Wooton, oh my lord "all have" ... That is soooo predictable. The old protestant reliable. That's right, Wooton. Don't try to answer ANY of my logic or any of the translating. Just throw a worn-to-death argument at me.
Anyhow, I answered that on CC, but basically, Paul just was making the obvious assumption that people would be intelligent enough to realize he meant that everyone in GENERAL have sinned.
Did Jesus sin? Nope. Was he fully human (and fully divine)? Yep.
Have babies sinned? Nope. They are logically incapable of sinning because they are not of the age of reason. They have no knowledge of good and evil.
Should Paul have said, "All have sinned... oh, except of course, babies, Jesus, and his Mom. Duh. You all know that, right? Oh, good. Just checking. Moving on..."
As to your other question... Pardon me, sir, but I believe you dropped your brain.
Anyhow, too many questions are popping up in a hurry. I imagine someone posted while I've been writing this, (again.) So, sorry guys, but I have school. I've been on here already much longer than intended. Hold all calls.



But babies are born with Sin

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