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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:27 pm 
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Why thanks Joy, ol' pal. As for being pro life, anti-abortion demonstrations are organized by people from our church with people from our church from time to time, yes. I've participated once. Oh, and my mom and dad once drove miles and miles to take us to a walk for life, it was amazing.
Anyhow, Blondie, sorry, you posted while I was replying to our very well informed friend Wooton.
The angel Gabriele said, "Hail, full of grace, the lord is with you!" (Luke 1:28.) The phrase full of grace is a translation of the Greek word, kecharitomene. Which means it refers to a specific characteristic of Mary.
The traditional translation "full of grace" is sounder than the newer one in some recent editions of the Bible, that give something along the lines of "highly favored daughter." Mary was that indeed, to be sure, but the Greek implies more than that, and it never even mentions the word for "daughter."
The grace given to Mary is of a PERMANENT and unique kind.
Kecharitomene is passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill our endow wit grace." Since this term is in perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but is enjoying its affects in the present.
Which means Mary wasn't in a state of grace because of the angel.
She was born sinless. Pure.
And forever more shall be.

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:32 pm 
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Romans 3:23 All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Just because Mary gave birth to Jesus doesn't mean she's sinless.

And I ask you again, since you still haven't answered me, PF, How do you believe you go to heaven.


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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:40 pm 
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Wooton, oh my gosh "all have" ... That is soooo predictable. The old protestant reliable. That's right, Wooton. Don't try to answer ANY of my logic or any of the translating. Just throw a worn-to-death argument at me.
Anyhow, I answered that on CC, but basically, Paul just was making the obvious assumption that people would be intelligent enough to realize he meant that everyone in GENERAL have sinned.
Did Jesus sin? Nope. Was he fully human (and fully divine)? Yep.
Have babies sinned? Nope. They are logically incapable of sinning because they are not of the age of reason. They have no knowledge of good and evil.
Should Paul have said, "All have sinned... oh, except of course, babies, Jesus, and his Mom. Duh. You all know that, right? Oh, good. Just checking. Moving on..."
As to your other question... Pardon me, sir, but I believe you dropped your brain.
Anyhow, too many questions are popping up in a hurry. I imagine someone posted while I've been writing this, (again.) So, sorry guys, but I have school. I've been on here already much longer than intended. Hold all calls.

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:44 pm 
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Everyone is born is sin, including babies. Because Jesus is fully divine (as well as fully human) he can not sin. Mary on the other hand is not divine in the least bit. And again, please answer my question on how you think you go to heaven. I will not be able to find it on the CC.


Last edited by Wretched Sinner on Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:52 pm 
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Pound Foolish wrote:
Wooton, oh my lord "all have" ... That is soooo predictable. The old protestant reliable. That's right, Wooton. Don't try to answer ANY of my logic or any of the translating. Just throw a worn-to-death argument at me.
Anyhow, I answered that on CC, but basically, Paul just was making the obvious assumption that people would be intelligent enough to realize he meant that everyone in GENERAL have sinned.
Did Jesus sin? Nope. Was he fully human (and fully divine)? Yep.
Have babies sinned? Nope. They are logically incapable of sinning because they are not of the age of reason. They have no knowledge of good and evil.
Should Paul have said, "All have sinned... oh, except of course, babies, Jesus, and his Mom. Duh. You all know that, right? Oh, good. Just checking. Moving on..."
As to your other question... Pardon me, sir, but I believe you dropped your brain.
Anyhow, too many questions are popping up in a hurry. I imagine someone posted while I've been writing this, (again.) So, sorry guys, but I have school. I've been on here already much longer than intended. Hold all calls.

I have the belief that specific beliefs like this will not put you into hell.
However I don't believe Mary is sinless. The Bible does not specifically say that. And I suppose we'll find out when we get to Heaven.
I'm sure this could be possible, but I purely don't think so.
Are there any other strong beliefs that differ from Protestants?
Do you have confessions or whatever they're called at your church?

I also have the belief, that until you know the other persons beliefs quite well, you can't challenge them. You can ask questions, and if you are informed, debate them, but otherwise....


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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:51 pm 
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I am growing tired of this debate about Mary's holiness. There are quite a few posts in the previous pages of this thread that explain my position quite clearly, which you have not confronted with clear evidence. (And not just my posts, but posts by others too)

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:53 pm 
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Aaaaaahhhh! This is confusing

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:24 pm 
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Joy wrote:
I do believe that the stand on abortion that the Catholic church has taken is a good one. A great one. I mean, you can be against abortion and everything, but if you don't do anything....

My family goes occasionally goes to the second biggest Planned Parenthood in the US to pray. Many Catholics walk around the fenced and screened in building to pray. And this week is our church's Marriage and Family Life Fair.

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:20 pm 
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Quote:
I am growing tired of this debate about Mary's holiness. There are quite a few posts in the previous pages of this thread that explain my position quite clearly, which you have not confronted with clear evidence. (And not just my posts, but posts by others too)

It's unnecessary, even silly, in the middle of a debate to go back and address assertions made a long time ago. That's not how conversation works, as I'm sure you know. In case you're assuming I've been keeping up with this thread, I haven't. I just grew interested in it again today. But anyhow, fine, I'll address your earlier post. (Though I have no intention of going back through this whole thread so I can reply to what every single person happened to say about Mary, thank you. If they wish to debate NOW, they can post NOW.)
Quote:
So, what about Romans 3:10?
Quote:
As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one"

The same goes for the Paul quote as this. Surely he didn't mean to say babies and Jesus and angels are all sinners. Obviously, he was generalizing. All grown humans have sinned, but not babies, angels and co. So, as there are exceptions, whatever you would have people believe, Mary could be one of them. Those are examples enough, but my example of Jesus also stands. You explained why Jesus is sinless, Wooton. How you think that logically means he's not an exception to Paul's "all have sinned" quote shall remain a question for the ages.
As to Wooton's assertion that babies have sin, sure they do. But babies haven't sinned, the verb. And that's the premise here, that Mary never committed a sin. Thus, misuses of verses like "all have sinned" and "there is not one righteous" etc fall flat.
Quote:
I have the belief that specific beliefs like this will not put you into hell.
However I don't believe Mary is sinless. The Bible does not specifically say that. And I suppose we'll find out when we get to Heaven.

Thanks for joining this debate, Joy. That shows real theological initiative. However, are you just saying that the Bible doesn't specifically say that Mary wasn't sinless? Or do you mean that since the Bible never specifically says Mary had no sin, then she must've? Something doesn't need to be in the Bible to be true. After all, the Bible never says that Jesus never sinned, or specifically says there's a trinity, or that dogs aren't purple aliens with orange heart eyes. But those are all still facts.
However... I have shown clear evidence above that Mary's purity is biblical, and no one's even tried to attack it directly. *smiles sweetly* I'm sure that's just an accident.

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:18 am 
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Pound Foolish wrote:
Quote:
So, what about Romans 3:10?
Quote:
As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one"

The same goes for the Paul quote as this. Surely he didn't mean to say babies and Jesus and angels are all sinners. Obviously, he was generalizing. All grown humans have sinned, but not babies, angels and co. So, as there are exceptions, whatever you would have people believe, Mary could be one of them. Those are examples enough, but my example of Jesus also stands. You explained why Jesus is sinless, Wooton. How you think that logically means he's not an exception to Paul's "all have sinned" quote shall remain a question for the ages.
As to Wooton's assertion that babies have sin, sure they do. But babies haven't sinned, the verb. And that's the premise here, that Mary never committed a sin. Thus, misuses of verses like "all have sinned" and "there is not one righteous" etc fall flat.


He didn't need to say excluding Jesus, because Jesus was Fully God. There was no way that he could sin.

Pound Foolish wrote:
After all, the Bible never says that Jesus never sinned

Er. Wrong:

Hebrews 4:15; For we do not have a High Priest [Jesus] who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

He didn't need to say excluding the angels, because angles are heavenly beings, and Paul's audience was people, humans.

As far as for the babies:

Psalm 58:3; Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.

Pound Foolish wrote:
However... I have shown clear evidence above that Mary's purity is biblical, and no one's even tried to attack it directly. *smiles sweetly* I'm sure that's just an accident.


Nope, never saw this. If you mean the thing about the angel saying that she was full of grace, I feel that you are reading too much into that phrase.

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:49 am 
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Pound Foolish wrote:
Quote:
However, some of the things that some Catholics believe is wrong.

Do please give some examples so that I may amuse myself with laughing in your face and correcting you.


:roll: c'mon...

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:59 am 
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Sorry had to edit this to fix some spelling.

Wretched Sinner my friend…oh...Honeysweetiebaby! I didn't even notice what you wrote because I was distracted with the Mormon thing. But I had happened to take a look today. Let me just say this kiddo...I hope you don't fall in love with a Catholic. Have you ever even TALKED with a Catholic? It seems a lot of your viewpoints aren't backed up by fact: 'This catholic said this, therefore this biblically based conclusion follows.‘ ‘The pope said that, this is what some book states' and yadayada.

I suggest that you talk with at least 5 different Catholics to try to get a feel for what they are really about. Listen Kiddo…that way you can also be better at refuting arguments in favor of Catholicism. I've actually talked with Wiccans (I'm not recommending THAT), Buddhists, New Age, Hindu, and all that jazz. Just saying you can't judge people or anything speak about what they believe, when you don't fully grasp the material yourself. Instead of trying to pick a debate, (not saying that you are), try learning...while of course sticking to your guns if anything doesn't line up with the Bible.

Simply...do your research kiddo. I'm like...the only Protestant in my family...but there are a few Catholics, and if you're saying ALL my relatives are going to hell...:( Heck, don't think I'm trying to correct you kid...just sharing my thoughts.

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Last edited by Sage on Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:06 pm 
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Sage, I personally believe that if a person asks to be saved, he will be saved, no matter his religions beliefs, but you must be born again. (John 3:3-7 3-Jesus answered and said unto him (Him=Nicodemus, a ruler and Pharisees of the Jews, so a very smart him with lots of logic.) Verily, Verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he can not see the see the kingdom of God. -4 Nicodemus saith unto Him, (Him=Jesus) How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mothers womb, and be born? -5 Jesus answered, Verily, Verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter unto the kingdom of God. -6 That which is born of flesh is flesh: and that which is born of Spirit is Spirit. -7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.) So if they are trusting anything but Jesus to get into heaven... I also have unsaved family members, Catholic and other wise.

I also personally don't think you have to talk to someone or do something to know its wrong. I mean, you know killing someone is wrong, you do not have to do it or know someone who has done it, to know this, just read the ten commendments.

PF... I have a question? Do you have a picture of Mary in your house? And do you talk to that picture? Do you have candles you burn "in" honor of Mary? (This maybe more Roman Catholic beliefs, I'm not sure.)

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:35 pm 
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@God's Girl~how has Pound Foolish not pounded us with clear evidence of Mary's purity???

@Ninja Throwing Star~Ok....so are you saying Catholics are NOT trusting in Jesus to get them into heaven?

Umm...Ninja... I didn't say you have to DO something to know if it's wrong. Nor am I saying to go out and experiment with other religions. That would be like saying to try drugs to realize how wrong it is. What I said... though I will slightly restate my claims to make it more clear to you....you should be familiar with what people say about the beliefs they follow, rather then your own assumptions. So yer, I understand why some of you may not agree with that. Just my opinion.

Sin is generated from the inside of unbelievers, but attacks believers from the outside.

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. (Ephesians 2:1-3)

Let me break this down. We were sinners saved by grace.

Old self (Col 3:9, NIV)
Flesh (Rom 8:1-13, KJV)
Sinful Nature (Rom 7:25; 8:3, NIV)
Body of sin (Rom 6:6, KJV & NIV)
Old man (Eph 4:22, KJV)
Body of Death (Rom 7:24, KJV & NIV)

Thru the death of Jesus, we were reconciled to God. We have a new man now. Christiany is a lifestyle of ongoing revelation of the cross.

For I resolved to know nothing (to be aquainted with nothing, to make a display of the knowledge of nothing, and to be conscious of nothing) among you except Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and Him crucified. ( 1 Corinthians 2:2 Amplified)

Right before our eyes, Jesus Christ was openly and graphically set forth and portrayed as crucified. (Galations 3:1 Amplified)
Christ was confirmed in your experience (Weymouth) (I Corinthians 1:4)

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Last edited by Sage on Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:59 pm 
Raspberry Ripple

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So Sage are you saying you have to work your way to heaven???

I was not saying Catholic are all unsaved or are all saved, I was saying if the person, personally does not asks for forgiveness and repent of they're sin, if they do not personally feel/see/understand/need they need a Savior,then yes I believe they are kn they way to hell.

(Matt 10:16, Behold I send you forth as sheep in the mist of wolves: be ye wise therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.) I don't think you have to "rub shoulders" with any religion, nor do I think you need to study their beliefs. I am not one of those people who shun other religions beliefs, what does a counterfeiter study the counterfeit or the real thing? So why should we do any different, it logical, we should study and up hold our own beliefs, if and only they line up with the Bible.

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:14 pm 
Caramel Crunch
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Oh my goodness...how did THAT come up dearie? I never once said that or implied it. Is accepting Jesus as your Saviour because we can't save ourselves....'working' your way into heaven?? If you think my theological beliefs are that off wack, then refer to 'why do we witness' where i say that works can't get us into heaven.

Well Catholics believe all of those things dearie.

"Rubbing shoulders" would be along the lines of going to a mosk and bowing to Allah...which I never said to do. Simply to be informed. Let's keep my words in context, shall we?

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:17 pm 
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Sage wrote:
@God's Girl~how has Pound Foolish not pounded us with clear evidence of Mary's purity???


Because I simply do not see any evidence that supports it. He has told us how he thinks it is, but nothing I've seen thats been crystal clear.

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:21 pm 
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Well based off his Bible-supported logic and scriptural referances....

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:47 pm 
Raspberry Ripple

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Okay I'm sorry Sage, I was just a bit confused about what you were trying to say. Yes, but like I said last night....
NinjaThrowingStar wrote:
The thing I have the most "problems" with, is confusing to a Man (A human being just like you, who sins just like you) and not going straight to God, and asking forgiveness. I believe I you have wronged someone then yes by all means go to them and ask for forgiveness, but why does your "preacher" need to know you stole a cookie last Friday night???

(I do not mean to argue with you, I just wish to understand your point of view.)


I never said that Catholic's are wrong nor have I said they are right. I only know a little about them, and what I do know is Roman Catholic...

I would still like to know if
NinjaThrowingStar wrote:

PF... I have a question? Do you have a picture of Mary in your house? And do you talk to that picture? Do you have candles you burn "in" honor of Mary? (This maybe more Roman Catholic beliefs, I'm not sure.)

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 Post subject: Re: Christian vs. Catholic
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:50 pm 
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Sage wrote:
Well based off his Bible-supported logic and scriptural referances....


1 scriptural reference compared to the how many references I've given that contradict his?

And I don't believe that the logic he gave is crystal clear either.

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