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 Post subject: Re: Debating Catholicism
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:31 pm 
Strawberry
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Okay, I was referring to the "Dark Ages." Not that particular instance. But yes, that is also another example. Thanks, SirWhit! From what I have researched, I have found that there is too much evidence that the "Catholic Church" is corrupt. As for Father Alberto, I'm sticking with my story. You can read his stories here from this link: http://fmh-child.org/Chick_Christian_Comic_Books.html

Those are comic books. I have read them all except maybe 1. (Again, I don't recommend these for kids who can't comprehend this stuff) It's where I get most of my information. (Note that you have to scroll down a little bit to get to the Alberto section.)

And Eleventh Doctor, I was chatting with you on the odyssey chat last night as you know, and you just can't argue with God! As you know, I won 3 arguments with you on 1 topic. It's your decision. If there are all of these major flaws in the church, then why believe it? As I said, there is utter corruption in the church. I recommend to all readers of this post, to read the Gospel of John. The fourth book in the New Testament. It's 21 chapters and an easy read. If you stick to the Bible, and use verses (in context!) this whole argument might end.

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 Post subject: Re: Debating Catholicism
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:29 pm 
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Jack Chick is not a good source for information. He makes a lot of false claims and doesn't do his research. I used to read his tracts too but when I actually started talking to other people and reading primary sources his arguments fell apart.

I don't recall you winning those arguments, you claimed to have won the arguments but I remain unconvinced of your points. I don't think I'm arguing with God, I believe what I believe because I think it's what is true and what God told us to believe. I am not Roman Catholic, I'm Eastern Orthodox so I don't believe in the Roman Catholic Church; I agree with you that it has some theological and corruption problems but just because we disagree with someone doesn't make them against God or of satan. I think you need to be more charitable in your disagreement with others.

I have read the Gospel of St. John, I think it backs up my views and that's what we're really discussing here; our different interpretation of Scripture. Neither of us are against the Bible or God, we've just come to different conclusions based on our studies and faith journey. Now you think you're right and I think I'm right, I think you are very passionate and sincere about your faith and I'd ask you to extend that courtesy to myself and others here.

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 Post subject: Re: Debating Catholicism
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:28 pm 
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Unfortunately, putting "I mean no offense" in front of an offensive statement doesn't cut it. If you say something offensive or polarizing, people can and will be offended by it, regardless of a condition statement saying you don't mean to offend.

(i.e., telling someone you think they look fat, but "you mean no offense" - most people would still be hurt and offended by the comment, regardless of your intentions.)

Though AioFan7 is new here, and is young, he does need to realize how hurtful and polarizing these comments can be - we do have some Catholics here on the board, so telling them that their religion was created by Satan is a bit polarizing.

AioFan7 attacked PF's religion and beliefs, and all PF responded with was an "lol." Seems pretty gracious if you ask me.

I'm also a little confused as to why AioFan7 thinks that the entire church, both Catholic and non is trying to "cover up" Alberto Rivera by saying he's a con man. What are they trying to cover up? The fact that he lied?

ETA: I would also suggest that if you are going to read only a little bit of a long thread like this, read the most recent posts rather than the oldest ones. The original posts were posted 6+ years ago - people have matured (I hope), and their opinions have also matured.

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 Post subject: Re: Debating Catholicism
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:37 pm 
Strawberry
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I'm not being as harsh as Jesus was being. Also, about Alberto, why wouldn't they want to say he's a con man for exposing their crooked dealings?

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Last edited by AioFan7 on Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Debating Catholicism
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:39 pm 
Dulce de Leche
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Yes, please edit out calling Catholicism satanic and witchcraft and edit out sources from Alberto.

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 Post subject: Re: Debating Catholicism
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:45 pm 
Strawberry
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I will edit them if you will edit the things Jesus said, for he said things that were much more harsh than what I've said. Jesus is God, and He is the one who talked about those who don't believe in Him and obey the things he says, being cast into Hell where they will suffer forever in agony. There is nothing more harsh than this, now you edit what Jesus says, if you DARE to disagree with what God says.

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 Post subject: Re: Debating Catholicism
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:37 pm 
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I'm not editing what Jesus said, I'm saying you're not Jesus so don't presume to be the sole source of truth. I'm interested in having a discussion and if you're not then just say that.

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 Post subject: Re: Debating Catholicism
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:01 pm 
Strawberry
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The sole source of truth is Jesus. He is God. I go by what He Himself says.

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 Post subject: Re: Debating Catholicism
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:04 pm 
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Okay, I agree with that but we clearly disagree on what God says so what went wrong? Are you saying there's no possibility you're mistaken?

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 Post subject: Re: Debating Catholicism
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:20 pm 
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AioFan7 wrote:
I'm not being as harsh as Jesus was being.

Okay. This is really one of my pet peeves.

I really dislike it when people say this to try to justify when they are being hurtful or polarizing.

There's a drastic difference between the all-knowing creator of the universe who can see your heart and soul and knows more about you than you even know telling you something "harsh" even if it's true. He can see people's hearts. He knows their thoughts. He has the authority to tell people what to do and what not to do.

And either way, he still did it in a loving way. When it was people who knew they were doing wrong - he yelled and flipped tables in the temple. But, when it was people who did not know their own sin, he sat and ate with them and taught them. The important part is that he did it all with love.

You, however, do not have the authority that Jesus has. Frankly, you're one of the youngest members on here, and thus so far the least educated. Furthermore, you can't read people's hearts or minds.

No matter what your intentions were, what you said was offensive.

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 Post subject: Re: Debating Catholicism
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:03 pm 
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I'm a big fan of Martian Luther too. Lolz

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 Post subject: Re: Debating Catholicism
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:29 pm 
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-- Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:27 pm --

TheDoctor wrote:
Pound Foolish wrote:
lol

Pound Foolish, you are stooping quite low to mock a new SS member who is only a kid and is honestly being more polite than most members on here? He apologized if he offended anyone in his post like three different times. Then again, you have always had low standards. I guess mocking defenseless children isn't too low for you. 0_0

Sincerely, Me


Cool it.[/quote]

Woah. Savage. Yeah- wait- the holocaust? EXPLAIN! Here's kinda where I'm at. I'm not Catholic, and I'm really not coming at this as someone with a lot of fancy knowledge on Catholic beliefs, but I've known my fair share of Catholics over the years, and here's what I can say. Like Christians, different Catholics believe different things. Some Catholics pray to saints, some don't. I know Catholics who seem genuinely unhappy, and it does make me wonder whether that comes from the work-oriented practices. However, it could be a personality thing. I have a friend who grew up in a Catholic home. (She became a Christian about a year ago) When we were talking about Christianity, she was very scared and probably angry with her Catholic teachers, who wouldn't answer her questions and seemed very judgemental. But I also know a few Catholics who are absolutely wonderful people, with real relationships with Jesus. I think it's judgemental and jumping to conclusions to say the Catholic Church was started by Satan. Early on, I will say, there were some very corrupt leaders and terrible practices carried out by that church. Since the church hasn't continued those things, I'd say it's improved. Now, I'm not saying Catholicism is right. It seems like their beliefs are more rooted in self-written doctrine than the Bible, and I think many Catholics miss out on a deeper relationship with God since they might be working so hard to get to Heaven or to please him. So there's that lil bit. I like the idea of doing church like the early church did, and Catholicism seems to do nearly the opposite, but some people may enjoy that kind of church more, which I don't really have a problem with, as long as their relationship with Jesus is genuine. Also, yes there has been sexual abuse and that probably reflects the heart of some Catholic leaders, which is really sad.

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 Post subject: Re: Debating Catholicism
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:40 am 
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Just popping in to say I can’t believe this has been going on for 6+ years. Every year some n00b pops out of the woodwork all up in arms and in a tizzy because they’re all young and misinformed. And then the Doc stands up for PF while silmultaneously setting him up for banter. It’s all rather nostalgic and amusing.

One thing though, my guy ~ maybe I’m just way behind on my biblical knowledge due to liberal college and all that jazz, b u t. Where did the whole sola scriptura thing actually come from in the Bible? Like..where specifically. Because of that were true, wouldn’t the original Old Testament or at least the Torah be the true book of God, that he directly inspired through his kids hands, and then everything else be wrong? Like, the gospels were all separate accounts of situations they lived, not entirely breathed out by God, because they were experience and history on top of Jesus moments.
And then like..if the whole “sola scriptura, only by the word that God gave, alone” and after Jesus left God didnt tyyypically talk directly to people anymore, then where did Paul get everything he wrote the books on? All the new information for the church?
I mean, yea, you can say divine wisdom, or even argue that the Holy Spirit inspired things through Paul. Okay, well, when exactly did those revelations and inspirations stop in humans? Was it just until revelations got finished in the Protestant Bible and then the Holy Spirit didn’t move or inspire people like that anymore? Does this mean that when people were first interpreting the Bible to validate things like abusive behaviors, and then people were like “wait that doesn’t feel very Jesus like” and found they interpreted it differently, were those interpretations wrong? Were the other ones wrong? Are all interpretations of the Bible wrong? Is every time a pastor preaches a sermon and gives a prayerful different interpretation of something in the Bible, wrong?
Also in that case shouldn’t everything be analyzed literally word for word and followed to the letter? Why is wearing mixed fabrics okay? Why is a girl going to church during her period okay? Why is that okay but other things aren’t? I mean, the ones that weren’t mentioned or cleared up later on during like..Paul era. Such as meats. (Is shrimp okay?). And even then, what gave him authority to dictate there was a change in the ORIGINAL words of God? Holy Spirit i know you’re gonna say, but like...my guy. Doesn’t that defeat sola scriptura in and of itself?

Granted with all this I’m not saying every single interpretation or religion that branches off the concept of Christianity or Gods way or whatever is right or true. Heck, a lot of it isn’t. You should be logical and analytical to make sure a view is consistent with its original context or source, and not fall into cults. And even the same individuals that have and follow a view that’s different, you need to logically analyze that they, too, follow the source material consistently - but that doesn’t make the whole view tainted, necessarily.
There are good Catholics and bad Catholics. Good Orthodox and bad Orthodox. Good Jews and bad Jews. (By the by, if we’re assuming sola scriptura includes and is heavily lenient upon the gospels, does this mean that all non Messianic Jews are going to hell?) it doesn’t make a whole religion bad, or going to hell. I think this is why Christianity and similar branches, as well as just the New Testament in general, are so relationship and grace focused over doctrine and religion focused. Follow God and the rest will follow. If you have bits and pieces of your faith that are different and are influenced by your religion, that may not be directly biblical but it’s all you know as right and you haven’t had this dire gut feeling that it’s wrong and you need to stop (aka, if you’re sacrificing people that’s obviously a problem. But if you’re interpreting communion one way or another, it’s probably fine.) then I doubt your entire relationship with God is hinges on that one different interpretation.
Obviously there’s gotta be one truth so we can’t ALL be right, but does that mean none of us are right and follow the Bible as it’s meant so none of us get to heaven? That there’s gotta be one true church that follows the Bible to a T and everyone else is a sinner because they have interpretations? Is heaven only gonna be filled with Presbyterians or Church of Christ or something? I highly doubt it. That’s illogical, and unbiblical.. it’s almost like Jesus said the only way to get to heaven and God is through him, and focused on building relationships with the people he walked with on earth, instead of not picking everyone’s philosophies!! That’s WiLd!!

Side note, Wretched Sinner.. if we’re going with Sola Scriptura, wouldn’t that mean that both music and dancing are Biblical since David did both before the Lord, and it was the person that tried to STOP him that was cast as in the wrong? :?

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 Post subject: Re: Debating Catholicism
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 3:52 am 
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I echo PF's lol. Precisely the reaction I had.

After it's all said and done, every single person alive today has been directly affected by the Catholics and their impact on centuries of history. If you think we live in an awful time, blame them. If you kind of like your life, thank them.

Catholics killed my ancestors. I'm very grateful. Why? The persecution the Anabaptists faced enabled them to continue to grow and eventually to migrate to America. Had they not been persecuted, they likely would have stayed where they were and I would have never existed.

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 Post subject: Re: Debating Catholicism
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 9:22 am 
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Wow sam, those are the exact questions I was going through a few years back. I basically came to the point where I could no longer accept Sola Scriptura, even though I love the Bible. Thats why I came to Ortbodoxy and Catholicism, because they too love and respect the Bible but have a whole world that the Scripture fits into. The historical church always used the scriptures, but they also believed in the teachings handed down from the apostles outside of the Bible. I was finally able to put the puzzle pieces together inside the history, tradition, and truth found in the historical church I found in Orthodoxy (and I find somewhat in Catholicism).

But to change this whole subject, I just had a question for our resident Catholics. I have started going to a Catholic church at college - not as my main church but because I go with friends and because I have become one of the church's pianists and get paid to be at mass :p . I appreciate mass, but I especually love the music. The mass settings this church uses (Mass of Creation) are very modern sounding yet also restrained without being too emotional or heavy. The hymns and spiritual songs are the same, modern harmonies with the structure and feel of old Protestant hymns I am used to. Just listen to this Holy God that my church sang for Palm Sunday. Its gorgeous and inspirational.

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=y00JzCZK5Hc[/youtube]


I was just wondering what most Catholics, or at least you, thought of this music. Is it horrible Vatican II [censored] that should be replaced with chanting (cue ED), or do you appreciate it like I do? I honestly just like the music, idk if I could argue for/against it theologicaly or liturgically. I have to say I've been listening to Marty Haugen and David Haas on Spotify nearly all week, but I do prefer the Orthodox Liturgy in general over Mass, so that is my only opinions.


(fyi, If you are interested in modern Christian music thats not CCM or the half-Christian Indie crowd check out to the two artists I mentioned above. I think their music is great. )

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 Post subject: Re: Debating Catholicism
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:46 pm 
Strawberry
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Hmm...Good verse. IDK how to exactly apply that to this context.

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 Post subject: Re: Debating Catholicism
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:52 pm 
Dulce de Leche
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Do you want to reply to any of the many many points brought up in response to your earlier post?

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