Debating Catholicism

[Wretched Sinner]

Don't forget loud...

[The Old Judge]

Is anything wrong with being loud? George Whitefield could preach to 20,000 people without a microphone.

And Nelson, the way you describe Baptists remind me of Kenny Baldwin and Johnny Pope. Those are fiery preachers!

[Joy]

Wish I knew more about this topic, but I'm not an independent, fundamental, bible believing, bible banging, foot stompin', soul winning, door knockin', devil chasin', sin hatin', pew jumping.... KING JAMES VERSION ONLY Baptist.

First off, though a few points about the Baptist theology and such I don't agree with....(I don't know a lot about it, so please bear with me) there is nothing wrong with being zealous, or loud. We had a sermon on it. A guy a part of our big picture church (please don't ask, it's hard to explain...a lot of churches, let's put it that way) came and preached...he had been a missionary in Africa. He's loud, and bold. He can yell pretty well to get his point across.
A lot of people think being zealous is a bad thing....it isn't. You just have to have balance, and be sure not to be over-zealous to a point where people are scared and intimidated. The Church needs to have more fire for God, they don't need to tune it down.

I hope I made sense....because everything sounds good in my head, but doesn't come off too sound when you look at it.

Now we're bunnytrailing.

[The Old Judge]

What do you not agree with about Baptist theology?

[Pound Foolish]

Ahem. If you want to talk about baptists, make your own topic, thanks. Baptists and Mormons have only come up in so far as they are relevant to Protestantism in general and Catholicism. Anyhow, Protestants is Protestants: all of you are wrong.
@ Nelson
Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Yes, sin came upon the race of mortals as a whole. But one single woman escaped it by the grace of God. This was a generalization, he simply didn't mention that one person was an exception, it was irrelevant. Especially since Mary wasn't even born. "Hey, yo, all of you have sinned except on gal who doesn't exist yet."

Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Again, there was one exception, and there was no reason for the purpose of the psalm to mention it, plus it's written before Mary even existed.
Chronology aside, when it comes right down to it, your assertions that Mary can't have been born without original sin have the same problem as "all have sinned." There was no reason whatsoever to mention one single exception to the rule. It had nothing to do with the point.

[Striped Leopard]

Umm... Paul and Mary were probably alive around the same time. If she was an exception to this rule that he so often speaks of, why wouldn't he have reason to mention her?

[Nelson S.]

Haha! People, I was joking about the Baptist thing. It's a Mark Lowry joke.

In regards to Mary being sinless, I don't believe there's Biblical evidence to support that theory. Jesus was the only sinless person ever (Hebrews 4:15, 2 Corinthians 5:21, 1 Peter 2:22, 1 John 3:5). Mary was "highly favored" according to Luke 1:28. It does not state that she was chosen because she was sinless. If it's not stated in the Bible, you cannot assume it's there (or intended) but left unsaid. That's how all believers can easily get derailed. Wanting something to be so and it being so are two different things.

All through Biblical history God chose or favored humans who were imperfect to do His work. Being perfect was never the criteria (except for Jesus). Being willing was. Mary was chosen or favored by God to carry the Savior. And she was a willing vessel. There is no Biblical premise of perfection or sinlessness on her part. Romans 3:23 "...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God..."

[jehoshaphat]

But the word trinity is never in the bible but we know that it exists!

[Tea Ess]

But the word trinity is never in the bible but we know that it exists!

You're right, the word trinity is not in the Bible. We use this word to describe a recurring concept found in Scripture. Another example of this would be the rapture. A word never used in Scripture, just one we use to describe an event, though more disagree on whether this will actually happen. Still, it's a word we use to describe a concept.

The question is not whether the word is used in the Bible, but whether the concept itself is biblical. Pound Foolish went back to the Greek to explain 'hail Mary full of grace' a little more. I have to say that, like Christian, I'm not entirely opposed to it, just so long as Mary had as much a need for Christ as the rest of us.

What I do disagree with is the disporportion between one verse in Scripture, and a very important doctrine in Catholic belief. If the authors of the Bible placed as much importance as you the do on this belief, would we not expect more verses on this subject? There are so many verses with concept 'all have sinned', but from what you have said so far, only one supporting Mary's perfection. Also, did Mary have the option of disobeying God, or did this grace protect her from that? Could this grace be given to any other human? How important is Mary's perfection to your faith personally?

[Wretched Sinner]

But the word trinity is never in the bible but we know that it exists!

May not use the word trinity, but definitely confirms God is one essence, 3 persons.

This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son. Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
(1 John 5:6-12 ESV)

[Connie_Kendall]

But the word trinity is never in the bible but we know that it exists!

The word itself is not in the Bible, but then again, neither is the fact that Mary is supposedly perfect and holy. The Bible may not use the word, but the concept is in it. Just because it didn't use the word, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[NinjaThrowingStar]

In advance, your last post was rather annoying. It may or may not get an answer, but let's leave it alone, at least for the moment. This post will be long enough without refuting ancient arguments. And I've never had the displeasure of even hearing of your John MacArther until now. But Catholics read stuff by Peter Kreft and Scott Hahn all the time, they're Catholic household names. Haven't heard of em? Not surprised. You're looking in the wrong places, kid. They have an answer for every single dated thing your silly blockhead spewed. Incidentally, to state the obvious, if your MacArthur "Catholic" theologian holds such opinions on Catholicism, he's not even Catholic, whatever he may say.

I am sorry if I annoyed you. But dude really name calling?!?!? Was that really necessary? (Name calling in my way of thought just shows you have no self control and maturity.) Anywho I have no clue whom any of those men are, or what their beliefs are, so I do not mean to sound like them. (Though I had no idea I sounded like them.) I was only trying to better understand your religion.

[GabrielleFandomGirl]

Well Cathilocs believe Mary was holy when she wasn't They have to pray for the saints (St.Mark) To ask God for something.

Mary is holy, have you heard of Luke 1:28? It says "Hail Mary full of grace." Grace is the opposite of sin if something is full of grace then there is no sin there. also Catholics do not pray TO saints we ask them to intercede on our behalf it is just like asking friends and family to pray for us... that is my two cents if you have any questions ask.

But I was told that Mary is above Jesus ?? I mean u don't need to worship her. Mary probley had sinned in her life and how can the saints intercede for u?? Why can't u just pray to God?

-- Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:59 pm --

I think that Catholic is okay, as long as they believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross, and that he is the son of God, they will go to heaven.

Is that all it takes to get to heaven? If so, I guess we'll be seeing a lot of demons up there too.

New Living Translation (©2007)

James 2:19
You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror.

The deciding factor of whether or not someone goes to heaven (according to the Bible) is not if they believe God exists or not, but rather, it is based on whether they choose to put their faith in the fact that Jesus died on the cross for their sins, and that they can't get to heaven on their own merit - salvation by works doesn't exist.

I agree u can't get to Heaven without salvation.

You need to believe that Jesus is the son of God, and that he died on a tree for you. But, you must also repent. You need to feel sorry for your sins. you need to ask him to wash away your sins with his blood.

[Wretched Sinner]

Repent. Hate sin. Put your trust in Jesus like you put your trust in a parachute while jumping from a plane.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Yep, Jesus is our parachute, the only reason to believe in God is to escape punishment.

[Arkán Dreamwalker]

Pound Foolish went back to the Greek to explain 'hail Mary full of grace' a little more. I have to say that, like Christian, I'm not entirely opposed to it, just so long as Mary had as much a need for Christ as the rest of us.

Mary was saved by Jesus, like the rest of us, he just did it early, so that he could enter the world through a perfect person. God saved Mary by giving her a special grace to preserve her from sin. It was mostly about the symbolism. (Something Jesus used a lot) We all know that St. Joseph was not Christ's father, he was his adoptive earthly father, God was Jesus Father. So his divine side, his Father, God, was perfect; so to establish that he was perfect, basically, he had his human side, his earthly mother, be perfect too.
Many people miss the point. Mary is not to be worshiped, but she is to be honored. When the angel said to her, "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son," instead of saying, "Let it be done to me," she could have said, "Get pregnant when I am not married? And endure all sorts of trouble and ridicule for having no obvious father? I should think not." But for saying yes to God's request, she deserves to be respected. (And she was the one chosen by God to be Christ's mother. Is that not worthy of respect even if you believe she is sinful?)
Mary's being perfect was not about Mary, it was about Jesus. He was born in a stable to show us he was humble, and he was born of perfect parents to show he was divine.
Mary's immaculateness, although real, is really a symbol for Christ.
"Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you." Luke 1:28 To be "full of grace" means to be without sin. The Ark of the Covenant was created perfectly to hold the Word of God - the Ten Commandments. Mary was created to hold the Word of God, "the Word made flesh" - Jesus.

(Be aware that I, unlike Mary, am not perfect. I might occasionally put something the wrong way or communicate badly. I am also not perfectly versed in the Truth.)

[Wretched Sinner]

Grace doesn't mean sinless.....grace is undeserved mercy, we all have God's grace if we believe in him. So, Mary have mercy from Hell, but she's not sinless.

@Eleventh Doctor, I don't think we should put our trust in God just so we escape the danger of hell, God is our king, he made us, he saved us, so if you just believe in Jesus to get a free ticket out of hell, well, you've got the wrong idea.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Then why don't you articulate the reason? Because trusting in God like a parachute sure sounds like the only reason to believe in God is to be saved.

[Wretched Sinner]

Well, th example of the parachute was merely to show to put your trust in Jesus and know that he's save you.

[Pound Foolish]

Grace doesn't mean sinless.....grace is undeserved mercy, we all have God's grace if we believe in him. So, Mary have mercy from Hell, but she's not sinless.

Typical, you ignored almost the entire post. The whole point of it was Mary didn't deserve God's grace, like all of us. That doesn't erase anything Arkán said.