Debating Catholicism

What do you believe and why? Here's the place to discuss anything relating to church and God.
User avatar
Wretched Sinner
Lemon Meringue
Posts: 3066
Joined: May 2012
Location: Next to a volcano! (Seriously!)
Contact:

Post

Of course, none of us deserve God's grace, but grace doesn't mean you're sinless.
Pound Foolish
Coffee Biscotti
Posts: 3347
Joined: June 2012
Location: Kidsboro
Contact:

Post

.... And you did it again. Never mind.
“I absolutely demand of you and everyone I know that they be widely read in every [censored] field there is: in every religion and every art form and don’t tell me you haven’t got time! There’s plenty of time.”~ Ray Bradbury
User avatar
GabrielleFandomGirl
Fudge Marble
Posts: 948
Joined: August 2012
Location: Somewhere

Post

Well, salvation may start with wanting to get away from Hell, but love for the ruler will come.
"What-ever."- Pound Foolish

E.R.K.

"Why are you cutting a table with a chainsaw...?"
User avatar
Doll
Rainbow Sherbet
Posts: 5002
Joined: May 2012
Location: Spoilers!
Contact:

Post

Somebody bugged me about not replying to this before now... -_- I guess I missed it, sorry.
Pound Foolish wrote:
John 1:14-16 "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, ' He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.' For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace..."
How can full of grace be "unmerited" grace if it's referring to Christ? How can you say full of grace means "full of unmerited love or favor" when it says the Word, that is God, is full of grace? God merits favor and love, one would presume.
In any case, where on earth did you get that information? It doesn't mean that at all, it's simply linguistically an error.
God is full of grace, but we don't deserve His grace. Its as simple as that.
Pound Foolish wrote:Nope, nope, nope. This part's actually easy. This is a very old Protestant song and dance.
Suppose there is a pit of mud in the road, and travelers fall into it at night. But then a kind stranger comes and pulls them out. Now, suppose a young woman is walking along, and the kind stranger calls out to her before she… catch my drift?
God did save Mary. In a way greater and more beautiful than he saved us. He saved her from ever being touched by sin. She had more reason than any of us to call God her savior!
But his resurrection meaningless!? How? Mary was a single individual, who God saved along with the rest of world. After all, before then, all souls were kept from Heaven, waiting for their salvation. Even saints and prophets. His death on the cross paved the way for her to go to Heaven. He died for his mother as much as for us. Perhaps even more so.
What about free will? Mary's free will? Sure, God chose Mary first, but Mary CHOSE to follow Him, and was therefore blessed as she was. If she was made pure from birth, when did she have a chance to chose to follow Him?
Image
~Queen Belle of Altanovia, Knight of Montreal & Order of Aristotle, Benevolent Dictator, Catspaw of the SS, & Dan's couch troll~
~"I’ve always found you to be a good person to disagree with." - Eleventh Doctor~
User avatar
jehoshaphat
Cookies & Creme
Posts: 228
Joined: May 2012

Post

She had the chance when she was asked to have Jesus, she could have said no even though she was made with out sin. Remember Adam and Eve were both made without sin but then sinned later when they chose not to follow him.
Image
User avatar
Doll
Rainbow Sherbet
Posts: 5002
Joined: May 2012
Location: Spoilers!
Contact:

Post

jehoshaphat wrote:She had the chance when she was asked to have Jesus, she could have said no even though she was made with out sin. Remember Adam and Eve were both made without sin but then sinned later when they chose not to follow him.
Hmm, I don't remember God asking Mary to have Jesus, rather he told her:
Luke 1:28-33 wrote:And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!” But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”
And if he was telling her, and she was made without sin, she couldn't disobey Him. No where could she have said, "Yah know what, I don't really want to do this." I retain my above argument.
Image
~Queen Belle of Altanovia, Knight of Montreal & Order of Aristotle, Benevolent Dictator, Catspaw of the SS, & Dan's couch troll~
~"I’ve always found you to be a good person to disagree with." - Eleventh Doctor~
User avatar
Eleventh Doctor
Chocolate Bacon Drizzle
Posts: 4769
Joined: February 2013

Post

So Mary had no choice in this? Because Luke 1:38 seems to say differently "Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” It seems like she is giving her consent, if she didn't we'd be getting into a problematic area.
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec

"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
User avatar
Striped Leopard
Cookies & Creme
Posts: 339
Joined: May 2012
Location: Ohio
Contact:

Post

She may be giving her consent, but her consent was not needed. It was a plus that she was consenting, and it was evidence of the Holy Spirit's work in her heart, but no, it wasn't really her choice, as evidenced by the passage that GG posted.
Formerly Christian A. :)
Jeremiah 13:23
Ezekiel 36:26-27
Ephesians 2:4-10

God has done the impossible! He has, in effect, changed a leopard's spots into stripes! He turned me, one who was accustomed to do evil, into one who can walk in good works! He brought me to life from the dead and gave me His Spirit, in order to cause me to walk in His statutes! He has totally changed me, and it is all for His glory!
User avatar
Eleventh Doctor
Chocolate Bacon Drizzle
Posts: 4769
Joined: February 2013

Post

So if she hadn't given her consent God would have made her pregnant anyway? Against her will? That really, really, seems at odd with God's character. This only strengthens my view that you believe we are robots that God controls.
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec

"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
User avatar
Striped Leopard
Cookies & Creme
Posts: 339
Joined: May 2012
Location: Ohio
Contact:

Post

Okay, let me rephrase that. God didn't need Mary in and of herself to agree with what He was doing. He's God. He wasn't just going to go from woman to woman until He found one that would consent to His will. He chose Mary, and He worked in her heart so that she would consent to His will.
Formerly Christian A. :)
Jeremiah 13:23
Ezekiel 36:26-27
Ephesians 2:4-10

God has done the impossible! He has, in effect, changed a leopard's spots into stripes! He turned me, one who was accustomed to do evil, into one who can walk in good works! He brought me to life from the dead and gave me His Spirit, in order to cause me to walk in His statutes! He has totally changed me, and it is all for His glory!
User avatar
Doll
Rainbow Sherbet
Posts: 5002
Joined: May 2012
Location: Spoilers!
Contact:

Post

God's Girl wrote:
jehoshaphat wrote:She had the chance when she was asked to have Jesus, she could have said no even though she was made with out sin. Remember Adam and Eve were both made without sin but then sinned later when they chose not to follow him.
Hmm, I don't remember God asking Mary to have Jesus, rather he told her:
Luke 1:28-33 wrote:And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!” But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”
And if he was telling her, and she was made without sin, she couldn't disobey Him. No where could she have said, "Yah know what, I don't really want to do this." I retain my above argument.
I'm not quite sure what I believe here, so please disregard this statement. I'm going to talk with some people and pray and I'll let you guys know if/when I reach a decision.
Image
~Queen Belle of Altanovia, Knight of Montreal & Order of Aristotle, Benevolent Dictator, Catspaw of the SS, & Dan's couch troll~
~"I’ve always found you to be a good person to disagree with." - Eleventh Doctor~
User avatar
Eleventh Doctor
Chocolate Bacon Drizzle
Posts: 4769
Joined: February 2013

Post

So instead of having an actual relationship with Mary and having her make a decision, God just picks her and reprograms her, stripping her of free will. Doesn't that take away a lot of the meaning of the Incarnation and just life in general if everything we do is just God programming us and masking it in an illusion of free will?

So in your view is this case unique or is this true of every good deed and choice we make? God decides ahead of time what He wants us to do then changes us until we consent? There's an illusion that you can say yes or no but it is literally impossible for you to say no, like literally no way at all; like a robot.
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec

"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
User avatar
Samantha14
Mint Chocolate Chip
Posts: 2082
Joined: November 2012
Location: Neverland, usually hanging out with Peter Pan.

Post

I'm not really one to join these things, however...

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/ ... conception

Plus, I really can't agree with Christian on this specific thing... I mean, I can't really agree with him at all on this. =p However, I would have to aide with my argument of free will... So...
Image
User avatar
Striped Leopard
Cookies & Creme
Posts: 339
Joined: May 2012
Location: Ohio
Contact:

Post

Okay... so it would be wrong for God to change Mary's heart against her will, in order to get her to consent to His will... but it's totally fine, just because it's official Catholic theology, for God to, without consulting with Mary, remove original sin from her before she's born so that she still has no choice but to consent to God's will...?

I'm not seeing much of a difference between the overridings of her will represented by our conflicting views. Why do you have a problem with my view if yours basically says the same thing?
Formerly Christian A. :)
Jeremiah 13:23
Ezekiel 36:26-27
Ephesians 2:4-10

God has done the impossible! He has, in effect, changed a leopard's spots into stripes! He turned me, one who was accustomed to do evil, into one who can walk in good works! He brought me to life from the dead and gave me His Spirit, in order to cause me to walk in His statutes! He has totally changed me, and it is all for His glory!
User avatar
jehoshaphat
Cookies & Creme
Posts: 228
Joined: May 2012

Post

He wouldn't change her heart he would soften it. Like god hardened the heart of Pharoh with Moses. God won't actually make anyone do something but he can make them more disposed to doing his will. I hope that makes sense.
Image
User avatar
Eleventh Doctor
Chocolate Bacon Drizzle
Posts: 4769
Joined: February 2013

Post

I agree both your views are essentially the same which is why I hold to neither of them :P Sorry if I made that unclear but I don't agree with God changing Mary's heart against her will or the immaculate conception. I do find it funny that you're both arguing over pretty much the same view.

I hold to what St. John of Damascus says.
It is necessary to understand, while God foreknows everything, yet He does not predetermine everything. For He even foreknows those things that are dependent on us, but He does not predetermine them. For He neither wills evil to occur nor forces virtue, so that predetermination is the work of the divine command of foreknowledge. On the other hand, God predetermines those things which are not dependent on us, according to His foreknowledge. For according to His foreknowledge, God has already forejudged all things according to His goodness and righteousness.
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec

"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
User avatar
Striped Leopard
Cookies & Creme
Posts: 339
Joined: May 2012
Location: Ohio
Contact:

Post

I find it quite humorous as well, because I don't think Sam realized that she was saying the same thing I was. But, obviously, I disagree with the idea of Mary's original sin being removed, so we do disagree there.

And, I'm sure you know, but I don't hold to what St. John of Damascus says. ;)
Formerly Christian A. :)
Jeremiah 13:23
Ezekiel 36:26-27
Ephesians 2:4-10

God has done the impossible! He has, in effect, changed a leopard's spots into stripes! He turned me, one who was accustomed to do evil, into one who can walk in good works! He brought me to life from the dead and gave me His Spirit, in order to cause me to walk in His statutes! He has totally changed me, and it is all for His glory!
Pound Foolish
Coffee Biscotti
Posts: 3347
Joined: June 2012
Location: Kidsboro
Contact:

Post

God's Girl wrote:God is full of grace, but we don't deserve His grace. Its as simple as that.
A true statement... also a completely irrelevant one. Whoever said Mary deserved to be saved by Jesus? Mary being sinless doesn't contradict that statement at all. Jesus cleaned away Mary's sin before birth, and afterward, she simply chose not to sin. She didn't deserve to have her sin washed away before birth, God did it anyway as part of His plan.
"full of grace," means full of unmerited love or favor."
That's the case you were trying to make. And you failed. As was pointed out, the phrase "full of grace" is used to apply to God himself. Not only does it not mean Mary wasn't impure, it puts Mary on pretty high pedestal.
And remember, it's not "as simple as that." We've spent quite some time debating this. Let's get back for a moment to the root of this debate:
The angel Gabriele said, "Hail, full of grace, the lord is with you!" (Luke 1:28.) The phrase full of grace is a translation of the Greek word, kecharitomene. Which means it refers to a specific characteristic of Mary.
The traditional translation "full of grace" is sounder than the newer one in some recent editions of the Bible, that give something along the lines of "highly favored daughter." Mary was that indeed, to be sure, but the Greek implies more than that, and it never even mentions the word for "daughter."
The grace given to Mary is of a PERMANENT and unique kind.
Kecharitomene is passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill our endow wit grace." Since this term is in perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but is enjoying its affects in the present.
Which means Mary wasn't in a state of grace because of the angel.
She was born sinless. Pure.
And forever more shall be.
That's what you're dealing with. That's solid scriptural basis. And that's what you still haven't' refuted after hundreds upon hundreds of words of trying.
What about free will? Mary's free will? Sure, God chose Mary first, but Mary CHOSE to follow Him, and was therefore blessed as she was. If she was made pure from birth, when did she have a chance to chose to follow Him?
An excellent point, Blondie. The answer is: her whole life. Again, Jesus removed the stain of sin before Mary's birth. So she wasn't fallen. Jesus lovingly protected his mom. But how could the removal of sin's stain before conception take Mary's free will? Would it remove temptation from around her? Would it remove her ability to sin?
Mary chose not to sin.
It feels good to be debating with you again, besty.
“I absolutely demand of you and everyone I know that they be widely read in every [censored] field there is: in every religion and every art form and don’t tell me you haven’t got time! There’s plenty of time.”~ Ray Bradbury
User avatar
gabbygirl17
Mint Chocolate Chip
Posts: 2065
Joined: May 2012
Location: USA
Contact:

Post

I know I am really late on replying to the trinity thing but my teacher in Bible showed us an awesome verse.

Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

^^ This verse shows the trinity.
She also explained that: If you only have the Holy Spirit and Jesus..you CAN'T! You cant have a Father without a Son!

Say you only have Jesus and God..then where is your comforter? You can't be comforted and have the Holy Spirit basically intercede for you to the Father.

Say you only have God and the Holy Spirit? You've blown your way to Salvation, because Jesus is the ONLY way to Heaven!

Again I KNOW this late to reply..but I thought I should :)
"Your words were found, and I ate them, and your words became to me a joy and the delight of my heart, for I am called by your name, O Lord, God of hosts." - Jeremiah 15:16
User avatar
Eleventh Doctor
Chocolate Bacon Drizzle
Posts: 4769
Joined: February 2013

Post

I'm sure everyone would agree that this shows the trinity, but it doesn't use the word trinity. The Early Church also still had to develop a theology of the trinity. For example much of the Nicean Creed is spent on the relationship of the trinity to each other; the Father begot the Son, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. These are things not mentioned in Scripture.
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec

"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
Post Reply