Why Eugene is a Stereotype and Why That's Okay

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TigerShadow
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Pound Foolish wrote:Annnd I just explained, writers use the word a different way from the dictionary. We fiction writers in particular have a way of using words and grammar any way we like. I know, it's annoying.
The above is absurdly condescending and pretentious. Please stop acting as though your knowledge and wisdom trumps the conclusions of people who have actually made an effort to adequately define their terms. I won't deny that you've got experience in the field, but that is absolutely no excuse to place yourself in the lofty world of fiction writers as though it is separate from the rest of us, as though we plebs are so privileged to be exposed to this bastion of all that is literary. I have dealt with this too often from the people around me, and I won't put up with it, nor will I see it be exercised over other members. If you wanted to mash as many of my buttons as are required to thoroughly tick me off, then congratulations—you succeeded.

I have no long-term ill will towards you, PF, but you have got to remember that we cannot hear or see you. We have no idea what your vocal inflections are or what your body language is. All we have is language that comes across as the written equivalent of a pat on the head and "that's cute, dear, but let the grown-ups handle this".

All that said—I think a lot of this debate sprang up from poorly defined terms. PF, if in your original post you had defined what you mean by a stereotype, then we would have known that this was part of the dispute, but until your next-to-most-recent post, I had absolutely no idea that the very foundations of what stereotyping is were even at issue.

At any rate, it doesn't even sound like you're correctly defining a stereotype. It sounds more like you're referring to an archetype, which is defined thusly:
The Oxford College Dictionary wrote:archetype, n. a very typical example of a certain person or thing [...] a recurrent symbol or motif in literature, art, or mythology.
So what's the difference?
it's not about 'deserve'. it's about what you believe. and i believe in love
Pound Foolish
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I only sound condescending because I am.
I do not think I'm the slightest bit smarter than you, to be clear. I actually think you have a fighting chance of being smarter than me some day. More seriously, I think you're probably smarter than me. But please don't spread that around. And especially don't tell Sammy.

Though I'm sorry I came off that way. Listen, I'm not trying to sound like I have abundant knowledge of the field. I'm fairly inexperienced, still in training. But I don't know of any way to say writers seem to use the word differently other than to say they use it differently. What else am I supposed to say? Though I guess you just mean that I didn't explain what I meant by using the word stereotype differently?

Please note then, I tried to provide examples of why and how I get the impression the fiction world uses stereotype differently. Not in the post you quoted by my giant one. How good the examples are I don't know. I hoped they covered it, though.

As to defining my terms, I admit I've done a poor job of that and you and Evil Twin have done a far better job. By stereotype, I mean a character with a lot of stock characteristics that proceed from their interests. In Eugene's case, it would be he is a computer and techno geek, therefore... therefore all the various characteristics we've already discussed.

And yes, you're right, archetype would probably be a better word. Actually, that might have avoided this whole mess.
“I absolutely demand of you and everyone I know that they be widely read in every [censored] field there is: in every religion and every art form and don’t tell me you haven’t got time! There’s plenty of time.”~ Ray Bradbury
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TigerShadow
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Pound Foolish wrote:Though I guess you just mean that I didn't explain what I meant by using the word stereotype differently?
Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. It would have been nice if you had gone ahead and defined what a stereotype was in your original post so that we would know what you were talking about; to us, "stereotype" means something much more negative than what you were suggesting (as you probably noticed when we all provided dictionary definitions of the term).

If, however—as that last sentence suggests—your claim is instead that Eugene fits the archetype of "technologically prodigious, often-insufferable genius" and yet is a well-developed enough character in his own right that he doesn't come off as trite and insipid, then we are in agreement, and we can let the matter drop.

As to the condescension thing, in no way do I seriously believe you to be actively malicious. You come off as way too friendly for me to come to that conclusion. :) I think we all forget that not everyone knows what we mean (try talking to me in person sometime—I'm just as grouchy and irritable as I am on the internet, except that I also expect people to automatically get the lame references I throw out). In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have been so caustic in my response.
it's not about 'deserve'. it's about what you believe. and i believe in love
Marvin D.
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Pound Foolish wrote:
Marvin D. wrote:PF, I'm still waiting.
Please continue our stalled conversation on the ToO about The Ties that Bind/preparing kids for encountering homosexuality. I was enjoying that conversation. When you reply to me, I will reply to you. :)

On a side note, it's odd that you post literally nowhere else on the entire board. You don't even post on your own homeboard, the ToO, often. (Except to argue with me it seems.) But to formulate a 916 word essay against Pound's opinions'? Yes, Marvin is available. What's more, you've repeatedly called me ignorant, you said in your post my opinion "wreaks" etc. I know these are very personal subjects to you. You are obviously passionate about them. But all this comes out as blatant antagonizing. I know you don't mean to, but my word. And please lay off a bit, okay? Even though I disagree with you I've tried to be friendly and I'm still trying to be friends. If I have been truly rude to you (it's been known to happen, I'm not tactful I know) please just tell me. But please know I'm trying. And I'd appreciate it you keep that in mind. :)
Our "stalled conversation" on the ToO came to an end because I invested a disproportionate amount of time formulating responses to your posts and receiving a recap of what you had already said, and considering how precious my time is, I have neither the motivation nor willpower to simply repeat myself once again.

Also, I have 19,000 (counted) posts on the ToO and I'm now the #3 poster in just over five years. I spend plenty of time there.

I, like Tiger, usually tend to hold little long-term ill will (although I am infinitely more grouchy and fully realize and accept that); but there are issues that I feel passionately about, and I will not apologize for coming forward and speaking about them and doing my part to clear up blatantly false misconceptions, trite truisms, and hurtful perceptions put forward by the majority. I know fully well how my words can come out since there's only text, but believe me, this is nothing.

Some things, even though they don't seem that way to you, can't be ignored.
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Smaug
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You know, maybe I'm wrong here, but it sounds to me like Pound Foolish is talking about tropes, not stereotypes. Tropes are neutral. Stereotypes are negative.

Or, maybe like Tiger said, an archetype is a better word.
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